To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

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I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

The OP has form for parroting TWAW on a loop, without being able to define what a woman actually is or engage with any discussion around that.

You can, of course, be supportive of trans rights without thinking TWAW.

I believe that trans people should be able to live life as their ‘authentic selves’, free from fear and discrimination.

I also believe that trans people have the right not to be pathologised as mentally ill or treated as liars or con artists. There is a tiny minority of men who claim to be women for nefarious purposes but they are a tiny minority.

I support their rights to the extent that it doesn't trample over other rights. In the case of women's aid, prisons, hospitals and sports for eg.biological women should be a separate category.

You can support trans rights whilst not believing trans women are women. Hope that helps.

I support their rights to the extent that it doesn't trample over other rights.

And why wouldn't that be fair enough? How can it be fair to ask people to compromise their own rights for others?

I believe that biological females born with XX chromosomes are women.
So no I don’t believe Trans are women in any way shape or form. They are biological male borns with XY chromosomes. These are scientific facts. It doesn’t matter what is in their heads.
This site is pro-women. That means support for safe spaces for women (toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, refuges and prisons) and the belief that women have the right to compete in female only sports without men swooping in breaking records and winning everything because they are lacklustre in their male category.
Women have long caught for safety and equality and we will not stop now!

And how do you tell one from the other?

YABVU to post a poll erroneously suggesting that those of us who don't agree that trans women are women also don't believe trans people should have rights.

YA also BVU to say that trans women are women despite being totally incapable of explaining what you believe a woman is or what you believe trans women and women have in common, and refusing to answer even the most basic questions about why you believe these things, as we established on the thread yesterday.

Incorrect.

Unless you think "being pro trans rights" means that we should all be compelled to believe that trans people are the opposite sex to the one they actually are and should have unrestricted access to single sex spaces and sports for the opposite sex, in which case no, I don't support that. And no one else expects to have these rights so there is no reason why trans people should.

YABVU to create a poll suggesting that those of us who don't agree that trans women are women don't think trans people should have rights.

YA also BVU to say trans women are women when you can't explain what you believe a woman is or what women and trans women have in common.

Not by assuming every trans person is mentally ill or a liar. That is just othering.

That's because if you make the word for female people inclusive of male people, it doesn't mean anything anymore.

And we need a word for female people, i.e. the group of people directly affected by Roe v Wade being overturned, for example.

All of this, and I think we also have the right to define ourselves as a group without including whoever else feels like it, and to be able to put words to our collective experience. Others do not have the right to be included in that, and to insist on the dissolution of our identity.

I've seen statements that "people" are affected by the end of Roe v Wade. It's just wrong.

Not by assuming every trans person is mentally ill or a liar. That is just othering

So you’ve told us how not to do it. So how do you do it? We segregate services like toilets and changing rooms for women’s safety not by assuming every male is a mentally ill or a liar, just that some are and some are dangerous.

So how does a woman or girl determine if the trans person in their space is lovely, or Katie Dolatowski?

I am totally happy to support trans women to live the life they wish to. I just don't accept that that necessitates an Orwellian denial of biological reality.

Transwomen are transwomen. And should be supported and accepted as such.

But they don't have the right to erase female biology

This is a completely ridiculous choice. I totally support trans rights, but I do not believe that simply by declaring that they are a woman, someone born male should have access to all women’s’ safe spaces, sport. Nor do I believe that the trans movement should be able to start minimising and demeaning womens’ role in pregnancy or breastfeeding, CIS women etc, without a mandate to do so from women themselves.

This.

Denying female people the right to even have a word for themselves is extreme sex based oppression.

I am totally happy to support trans women to live the life they wish to. I just don't accept that that necessitates an Orwellian denial of biological reality.

This is perfectly put

I agree it’s a minority - but pretending that minority doesn’t exist just puts women at risk.

The reality is, there’s nothing stopping trans women from using women’s loos or cubicled changing rooms - as who is really going to police that and even notice a lot of the time? I could stroll into a men’s loo on a quiet day and would probably get away with it. A man dressed as a man could easily enter a women’s changing room when no one is looking and hide. It’s not right, but it already happened before the trans movement, so in many ways I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily connected.

Ideally a cubicled mixed area should also be provided, which would also benefit fathers taking their daughters out etc.

However, in terms of regulated areas like women’s prisons, sports etc there needs to be a distinction made in the interests of safeguarding and fairness. This is just common sense.

This. You are making two completely different points, trying to start a row

That's a no from me.

However with regards a daughters-in-law don't have 1. I have a ds. And the same way I wouldn't want him in a cell with a trans man.

I think putting biological males and woman together places risk of harm - in both directions.

Which is exactly who OP keeps disappearing! It's been pointed out time and time again her views align with those in here who she is calling transphobic.

Is the OP coming back I wonder?

That's a very manipulative yabu/yanbu choice you gave. Either twaw or you don't think they should have human rights. 🙄

I believe that everyone has the right to live their life as they want (within the law and common decency.) and we are all as but not more important than each other. I believe we all have a set of needs that matter and one group should not be expected to surrender their right to have their needs met in order to prioritise the feelings of another group.

I believe that when these needs are in conflict a third space/solution must be found. Eg rape survivors groups.

Biological women only.
Biological males only.
Open to all as a third option.

It is not, for example, appropriate for a biological male to attend a group filled with biological women who have been raped by biological males and who say they need a space that feels safe to try to process that. It is not acceptable to say to these traumatised women that they must agree that this biological male is a woman and if they can't make that person their priority, they cannot access rape counselling. This is happening. Here. In the UK. Right now. It's not ok.

I do not believe that a person born male, with male genitalia and xy chromosomes is biologically a woman because they have decided that they feel more comfortable with the gender stereotypes more normally associated with women.

I believe in biological fact. I do not, for example, believe that a person without a cervix needs a smear.

I believe that people are confusing gender stereotypes with biological fact.

I will call a person by the name they choose. I will say him or her or they if that's what they want. I will not pretend that their biological sex is anything other than the reality of it.

I whole heartedly agree with you and just this morning read a post that I was disgusted with and can't believe mumsnet allow it tbh