To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

See, I'm fine with trans women identifying as women in a general social sense

Exactly. I don't even think it's that complicated. There are certain areas where sex should be prioritised over gender. Sport being one of them.

Who actually is bothered that much by what someone has in their pants?

I am bothered in certain situations where women should have the right to spaces reserved for their sex. Sports. Rape counselling. Women's refuges.

What am I going to discover next, people here don't agree with gay marriage?

Of course not. Gay rights never impinged on anyone else's or required them to overlook biological fact.

It’s funny how sex is suddenly so complicated.

When deciding which sex to deny the vote to, which sex to genetically mutilate etc it seems to be obvious.

Incidentally karotypes are one of the sex markers. At a basic level sex is determined by developmental pathways towards gamete production. The pathway towards the potential for large gametes means you are female. This definition includes DSDs.

What is totally bizarre is that 20 years ago, trans people did not claim to be the opposite sex. They were transsexuals, who were men who wanted to be women and vice versa. The main demand was to be not harassed or discriminated against. And treated respectfully - e.g. called by their new name. All totally reasonable.

Now we are expected to believe in transubstantiation. Saying the words ‘I’m really a man/boy’ makes a female a male. And on the path to hormones and lifelong medication.

Thank fuck I was a tomboy in the 1980s and not today.

My niece was not so lucky and no, taking testosterone has not improved her mental health. Why would it?

I think OP is being really goady in the insistence that everyone who doesn’t blindly say TWAW is transphobic.

Yes some people on this thread clearly are, but for the most part I’m reading comments from people who support trans people in wanting to live as and be treated like women in pretty much every social aspect - but with some common sense shown around areas that impact negatively on women’s rights.

If you don’t blindly side with Stonewall’s views that TWAW in every aspect (which OP clearly also doesn’t given their comments about making exceptions around prisons etc) then you are transphobic.

But it’s not helpful to emphatically say TWAW. For a start TW have their own different biology and medical needs to women. Presumably they don’t need smear tests and mammograms but may well need prostate checks?

They also shouldn’t be lumped in with women when reporting on statistics. Eg particularly when you consider the rate of violence and sexual violence among TW is the same as among men - which is very different to the rate among women.

There has to be some distinction that gives trans people dignity and respect without resulting in women being reduced to womb carriers and having to share intimate spaces - when they are at their most vulnerable - with male-bodied TW.

What about trans men, by the way? They never seem to get quite the same level of discussion on these issues. Because I think that what’s interesting is TW having access to women’s spaces, sports etc gives them the upper hand, while TM having access to men’s spaces and sports makes them more vulnerable.

I suppose it depends on how you define "woman". I see gender as a social construct-a "man" or a "woman" can be defined by the choices they make in how they dress, their beauty routines, their choices in activities etc. However even this is problematic, because to make the social construct hold you have to align the definition of gender to stereotypes of the gender-which has historically been oppressive of women and suggests if someone doesn't meet the stereotypical social expectations of that gender, they are somehow less of a man or woman. It is a really difficult issue and I can understand completely why the muddiness of the waters infringes on the rights of women.

Biological sex is a non negotiable fact determined by chromosomes, though.

Women’s rights should always come before trans rights. Not mutually exclusive but the current agenda is taking away from women which is wrong.

What someone does is not my business until it starts to affect 50% of the population.

This! And the next poster.

I am supportive of trans rights. I have a trans niece who I love and support unconditionally.

However I believe a trans women/man is a trans women/man. They are not women/men. They are something special in themselves and like both women and men have special needs and requirements at times that are specific to their gender. We should work to accommodate all so long as the accommodation doesn't remove/inhibit/steal the rights of another gender.

For the most part I have no problem with trans people accessing their preferred genders spaces. However, there are spaces, groups etc that should be retained to biological gender only. I don't feel having these thoughts means I'm transphobic or a TERF

I agree with previous posters. I support trans rights yet I'm not going to deny that there's obviously differences between trans women and women.

It reminds me of how people say that white privilege is not that you don't face problems, it's that your skin colour isnt the cause of your problems. Women go through things and face things in life every day that men and trans women do not face or experience. That's not to say they dont face different equally serious issues. Its just that their experiences are different. To try to gloss over this is extremely demeaning and undermining to women and their experiences and what they go through.

I feel very strongly about this. They are not women. All the surgery in the world will not change that. They will never have to deal with periods, child birth, breast feeding, unwanted/unplanned pregnancy, choosing abortion or motherhood, miscarriage, infertility and the treatmebts, menopause, gender pay gap all the things we are stopped from doing because we are women. For example loss of career due to choosing to become a parent etc

And I know they will say they want those things but they can't have them. And one that I saw on Instagram said they wish they had periods so they could get pregnant. Without actually understanding what that all means or how it all feels.

Just like women who are trans men will never truly know what it is to be a man.

Women have fought for equal rights and opportunities for too long to now not even be allowed their own toilets in some places because a man has decided that they want to be a woman and they have more rights.

People can do and feel whatever they want. But we always have to bend and twist for the minority and therefore women.are being penalised again.

Even the language for women is changing, breast havers, womb havers, cis, period haver etc. Its all ridiculous. Trans is not new. And I have a respect that thinks they can dress how they want. They can have the operations etc. But we need to stop erasing women's rights and feelings and thoughts.

I heard of a school locally from a friend who's child's teacher is trans and biologically female. She changes her sex almost daily without telling anyone. My friends child forgot himself walked in and said hello Miss. She ripped him apart because she was sir that day and he got detention.
I said if they want to do that fine. But why are kids getting intro trouble just why can't they use their first name instead?

My friend complained to the school who didnt even know she was giving detentions for this. He didnt have to go in the end. But if his mum didnt question it. It would have continued.
It has no place in schools.

And stop telling us we are lucky to have periods etc!

I'm sure I will be called a transphobe.

'Everyone has a gender identity.'

Nope. I certainly don't. I'm a woman. I don't 'identify' as anything else.

Nobody answered my question last night so I'm going to ask again for the morning people.

Would you be happy to be locked in a cell with a male bodied person who said they were a woman, when there was a high risk of that person being a sex offender? Would you be happy to shower alongside that male stranger? Would you be happy with your daughter being in that position?

Would you be happy to be locked in a cell with a male bodied person who said they were a woman, when there was a high risk of that person being a sex offender? Eh no from me.

"Barbie Kardashian" yes that's her new name is locked up in a female prison, she has a long history of violence towards women who fantasise about mutilating the vulva of her next victim.

@PonyPatter44 completely not. And that's what it boils down too. Women's safety!

Wouldn't hold your breath @PonyPatter44

Safe spaces, refuges for vulnerable women, changing rooms, female prisons is the elephant in the room when it comes to the TWAW crew.

A woman is an adult female human.
It's as simple as that.

I'm sure I will be called a transphobe

Everything is transphobic now, I wouldn’t worry

This.

I think mumsnet is incredibly anti-trans and also fails to recognise the existence of trans men.

Any actual evidence for this?

I think mumsnet is incredibly anti-trans and also fails to recognise the existence of trans men.
Trans men are not threatening women's rights and generally are non threatening towards woman.
I think the safety of women is the main concern not trans hating.

HOWEVER when it comes to problematic things like refuges, womens prisons and sport there should be a third space.

If you think this, you're in line with 90% of the thinking on the transphobic site that is MN.

What a fucking goady post and the voting options are laughable

'HOWEVER when it comes to problematic things like refuges, womens prisons and sport there should be a third space.'

This view is considered transphobic by TRAs and goes against the rights they're campaigning for.

They do not want third spaces, they want access to woman's spaces to validate their belief that they ARE women.

The voices of many many trans people who do not believe this is lost in this thread as well. Stonewall et al do not represent all trans people by a long stretch.

Very true

To me women are those born biologically female. Men are those born biologically male. Trans people I guess have a slightly different biology, maybe a difference in hormones or genetics which makes them feel so strongly they belong to the other gender. Those people should be supported for who they are, but it doesn't make them women/men in the biological sense. Biological women shouldn't be disadvantage by a smaller subset of the community by having their spaces used (thinking of places like prisons) or wording for products changed. Surely if you're trans then you know you weren't born with the same parts as those biologically that gender so can't be offended by use of women or female for products or services aimed at biological females, for example?