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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

1000 replies

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 18:14

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Theeyeballsinthesky · 24/06/2022 22:01

I’m always fascinated that despite ppl with DSD endlessly pleading not to be dragged into this, that TRA repeatedly ignore it. As always kindness goes one way

anyway ppl with DSD are still either male or female, there is no mysterious third sex

BoredofthisCrap7 · 24/06/2022 22:01

""This discussion has every place in a debate when your argument rests on sex is a binary, biological, unambiguous FACT.
what you are saying is incorrect: ideology , not science, and needs to be called out if it’s the entire basis for your argument.""

MY ideology?
What? Human anatomy, physiology, biology, evolution and genetics? MY ideology?

People with DSDs have REPEATEDLY asked NOT to be brought into this debate, and yet here you are, dragging out all the old tropes about "intersex" people as if it somehow proves your argument.
DSDs, if anything, prove that sex IS very much binary.

DO you agree or disagree with Robert Winston?

Is there really nothing beyond your old "what about intersex people" blah blah blah.......
It does get TERRIBLY boring.

Doyoumind · 24/06/2022 22:02

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 21:59

So if sex is not binary, what sex are people with Swyers syndrome? If sex is not binary, how would a person with a DSD know they had a DSD?

Exactly. And the stupidest thing is that trans ideology relies on there being a binary. If it wasn't binary how could you be trans or non binary?

Porcupineintherough · 24/06/2022 22:02

@Tandora are you saying that trans women are all products of dsd? Because you know that's crap right?

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 22:04

user58486267489 · 24/06/2022 21:52

@StolenCookie anyone who has radical, life altering surgery on a healthy body is mentally unwell.

@stolen. The actual quote.

if you are saying someone with cancer is healthy, are you using your weird definitions of words again? People have moles removed (not exactly life altering radical surgery but again you’re probably using your definitions again) as some moles are cancerous. You’re not the hottest coal in the fire are you sweetie

Tandora · 24/06/2022 22:04

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 21:59

So if sex is not binary, what sex are people with Swyers syndrome? If sex is not binary, how would a person with a DSD know they had a DSD?

I don’t understand these questions. They are incoherent.

You say that trans women are not women , because they are not female. And female is a FACT. female defines a woman- also a FACT.
But What is female I ask? A person with xx chromosomes and large immobile gametes say you.

But there are millions of women around the world who don’t have xx chromosomes or large immobile gametes (and I’m not just talking about Swyers syndrome). So I ask again- what is a female?

Scabbyknackers · 24/06/2022 22:04

Trans women are trans women. They deserve protection, rights and respect but they are not the same as biological women.

That is determined by chromosomes and yes it is binary, resting on the presence if a Y chromosome. There is a small number of people who have sex disorders such as kleinfelter's but these are disorders or anomalies (such as the woman in the oft- wheeled out article who has cells from a twin brother as part of her makeup) and do not denote some type of sex spectrum. Sex is important and cannot be ignored in favour of the much less binary gender. Not in all circumstances.

The point here is that erasure, pretending differences do not exist is not helpful. A more honest approach would be to accept that trans women are not lesser, but they are not the same as women. This approach would allow the safeguarding and fairness issues to be ironed out without this ongoing unhelpful chorus of 'transphobic!' Ringing out any time people want the truth to be acknowledged, which is that there are some situations which necessitate that safety or fairness need to supersede inclusion of anyone who identifies as a woman in all arenas.

OP, the issues you are vague about and have no answers for, prisons etc, ARE the points that are of concern for biological women. You can't be airy fairy 'TWAW, yes there are some issues but these are tricky and I don't know the answers but no, trans women are definitely women and that's that'. If there was no difference then these issues would not exist.

The path to inclusion and harmony is honesty about differences, what these differences signify. and then working out where everyone stands.

Have you read about the man who has detransitioned recently and is suing the NHS? I don't know his full story but it looks as though he was advised by trans rights organisations who I believe are causing a huge amount of harm by trying to erase any acknowledgement of these differences and prevent exploration of the issues surrounding gender dysmorphia, calling this kind of investigation 'conversion therapy' when it really isnt.

Have a think why gender critical women have this stance and what outcomes we really want. I think you'll find few of us want anything but dignity and acceptance for trans women. This cannot be at the expense of women's rights though and it cannot erase the issues that uniquely apply to women.

I also find the argument very contradictory that gender is a spectrum or whatever your wording was, but then in the same breath that trans women should be included in one of two very binary categories. If it's fine to accept that gender is complicated, then why not accept a variety of different terms to accurately describe who people are?

Porcupineintherough · 24/06/2022 22:07
  1. No there aren't.

2 So what do you think a woman is @Tandora . And what do biological women and trans woman have in common that differentiates them from men?

Tandora · 24/06/2022 22:07

BoredofthisCrap7 · 24/06/2022 22:01

""This discussion has every place in a debate when your argument rests on sex is a binary, biological, unambiguous FACT.
what you are saying is incorrect: ideology , not science, and needs to be called out if it’s the entire basis for your argument.""

MY ideology?
What? Human anatomy, physiology, biology, evolution and genetics? MY ideology?

People with DSDs have REPEATEDLY asked NOT to be brought into this debate, and yet here you are, dragging out all the old tropes about "intersex" people as if it somehow proves your argument.
DSDs, if anything, prove that sex IS very much binary.

DO you agree or disagree with Robert Winston?

Is there really nothing beyond your old "what about intersex people" blah blah blah.......
It does get TERRIBLY boring.

your idea that gender is determined by sex and that sex is a singular, binary, unambiguous and objective fact about a person is ideological, yes.

Human anatomy, physiology, biology, evolution and genetics are biological realities. The reality of this biology is that it is diverse, developmental and complex (and not perfectly binary).

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 22:07

I’m waiting for @tando to do some more reaseach and their head explode when they realise some DSD only affect males and some only affect females. There is no DSD that affects both sexes.

user58486267489 · 24/06/2022 22:08

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 21:56

Why?

Oh because. Bloody well because.

Who in their right mind wants to have their testicles removed and their penis remodelled into a (pretend) vagina?

I can’t engage any more. It’s so fucking depressing.

I genuinely feel like a size 10 supermodel. No one has snapped me up on their modelling books because - guess what - I’m a 5’4 plump woman. The way I feel and identify is IN MY HEAD it’s not real.

this is all such bollocks and misogyny and twattery and every other word that is childish and satisfying.

We will continue to see children and adults detransitioning until hopefully, at some point, this utter crap is called out and stopped.

People need to know how to love and accept themselves AS THEY ARE. It is ok to be who you are. If you “feel” like a woman but have a penis, you don’t have THE FIRST FUCKING CLUE what “feeling like a woman” really means.

And I’m done. Thank you to the most science minded people making proper arguments. I’m more like a pirate driven mad by the heat and the rum tonight.

Utter fuckwittery from the OP. Utter fuckwittery.

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 22:09

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 22:04

@stolen. The actual quote.

if you are saying someone with cancer is healthy, are you using your weird definitions of words again? People have moles removed (not exactly life altering radical surgery but again you’re probably using your definitions again) as some moles are cancerous. You’re not the hottest coal in the fire are you sweetie

Lol. This is what you said:

Conflictedunicorn
But @StolenCookie transpeople are by definition suffering from a form of mental illness. Otherwise they would not need medical treatment would they?

So you’re saying anyone who undergoes medical treatment is mentally unwell. Nonsense.

OP posts:
Tandora · 24/06/2022 22:10

Porcupineintherough · 24/06/2022 22:02

@Tandora are you saying that trans women are all products of dsd? Because you know that's crap right?

Nobody understands the aetiology of transness. Just as no one really understands the aetiology of homosexuality. I think it is highly likely that there are biological factors certainly.

Sn0tnose · 24/06/2022 22:11

I’m quite interested in why you believe that being pro womens rights means that you have to be anti trans rights. Unless, of course, you’re acknowledging that the additional rights being demanded by TRAs are in conflict with women’s rights?

Tandora · 24/06/2022 22:12

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 22:07

I’m waiting for @tando to do some more reaseach and their head explode when they realise some DSD only affect males and some only affect females. There is no DSD that affects both sexes.

Again I can’t really follow this since you are yet to provide a coherent definition of “female” or “male”.

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 22:12

user58486267489 · 24/06/2022 22:08

Oh because. Bloody well because.

Who in their right mind wants to have their testicles removed and their penis remodelled into a (pretend) vagina?

I can’t engage any more. It’s so fucking depressing.

I genuinely feel like a size 10 supermodel. No one has snapped me up on their modelling books because - guess what - I’m a 5’4 plump woman. The way I feel and identify is IN MY HEAD it’s not real.

this is all such bollocks and misogyny and twattery and every other word that is childish and satisfying.

We will continue to see children and adults detransitioning until hopefully, at some point, this utter crap is called out and stopped.

People need to know how to love and accept themselves AS THEY ARE. It is ok to be who you are. If you “feel” like a woman but have a penis, you don’t have THE FIRST FUCKING CLUE what “feeling like a woman” really means.

And I’m done. Thank you to the most science minded people making proper arguments. I’m more like a pirate driven mad by the heat and the rum tonight.

Utter fuckwittery from the OP. Utter fuckwittery.

My thoughts exactly. There are no coherent arguments that have been produced by those adamant TWAW. It’s boring and depressing. It’s got to the point where we can call out the exact arguments they drag out every time. I’m just hanging around for clownfish then I’ll probably tap out too.

Snaketime · 24/06/2022 22:12

I support trans rights, but at the same time I do feel that women have fought for so many years for their rights and their right to be safe in single sex environments and for every 9 trans women that are harmless and just want to live their lives the way they want there will be that 1 perv who uses it as an excuse to go in areas where women are vulnerable.
We need to find a way to be inclusive of trans women, whilst still protecting the rights we have fought so hard for. I'm not sure what the answer to this is though.

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 22:12

user58486267489 · 24/06/2022 22:08

Oh because. Bloody well because.

Who in their right mind wants to have their testicles removed and their penis remodelled into a (pretend) vagina?

I can’t engage any more. It’s so fucking depressing.

I genuinely feel like a size 10 supermodel. No one has snapped me up on their modelling books because - guess what - I’m a 5’4 plump woman. The way I feel and identify is IN MY HEAD it’s not real.

this is all such bollocks and misogyny and twattery and every other word that is childish and satisfying.

We will continue to see children and adults detransitioning until hopefully, at some point, this utter crap is called out and stopped.

People need to know how to love and accept themselves AS THEY ARE. It is ok to be who you are. If you “feel” like a woman but have a penis, you don’t have THE FIRST FUCKING CLUE what “feeling like a woman” really means.

And I’m done. Thank you to the most science minded people making proper arguments. I’m more like a pirate driven mad by the heat and the rum tonight.

Utter fuckwittery from the OP. Utter fuckwittery.

“Who in their right mind wants to have their testicles removed and their penis remodelled into a (pretend) vagina?”

Um. A lot of trans people?

OP posts:
Tandora · 24/06/2022 22:13

Sn0tnose · 24/06/2022 22:11

I’m quite interested in why you believe that being pro womens rights means that you have to be anti trans rights. Unless, of course, you’re acknowledging that the additional rights being demanded by TRAs are in conflict with women’s rights?

Who believes this ? I am pro women’s rights- an avid feminist. I also support trans rights.

BoredofthisCrap7 · 24/06/2022 22:13

"your idea that gender is determined by sex and...."

Nope.
Never said that.
Never mentioned "gender" anywhere. Because it's made up bollocks that I don't subscribe to.

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 22:14

Sn0tnose · 24/06/2022 22:11

I’m quite interested in why you believe that being pro womens rights means that you have to be anti trans rights. Unless, of course, you’re acknowledging that the additional rights being demanded by TRAs are in conflict with women’s rights?

I don’t believe this?

I’m pro women’s rights and trans’ rights.

OP posts:
Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 22:14

Tandora · 24/06/2022 22:12

Again I can’t really follow this since you are yet to provide a coherent definition of “female” or “male”.

You’ve been given the definitions repeatedly. Now toy may not like them you cheeky little definitionaphobe you but those are the definitions. So so far we’ve worked out you are scared of facts, words, definitions and have very poor reading comprehension.

OMG12 · 24/06/2022 22:15

Your voting options show you have missed the point entirely. I totally support trans rights but they are not women they are transsexuals.

They have not experienced life as a female their who lives, this means they cannot fully understand what being a woman is, just like a woman cannot understand fully what being a transsexual is like.

transrights do not trump womens rights and women have a right to single sex spaces without having to compromise this for trans rights

Tandora · 24/06/2022 22:16

Conflictedunicorn · 24/06/2022 22:14

You’ve been given the definitions repeatedly. Now toy may not like them you cheeky little definitionaphobe you but those are the definitions. So so far we’ve worked out you are scared of facts, words, definitions and have very poor reading comprehension.

The definition I was given was xx and large immobile gametes. But there are millions of women who have neither. So not a helpful or accurate definition I’m afraid.

StolenCookie · 24/06/2022 22:16

Listen to the tone on here.

I asked in the other topic why my opinions made people so angry.

You all insist you’re not angry but there’s swearing, name calling, so many petty insults.. and yet you also say “stick around and have a debate”.

It’s really weird..

OP posts:
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