To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

This. The entire human race is based on sexual reproduction by male and females. Every single person on earth was produced by sperm meets egg. But we don't need named classes based on this even and I'm going to shout WHEN ROE VS RADE WAS JUST REPEALED. When everyone in America seems to know which sex class to deprive of basic health rights but we can't define the group.

The sex class who need abortions need a name.

Sex really, really is binary.

@Tandora my dp was born with one hand. And too few toes. We all know the Vast majority of humans have two hand and ten toes. So because my dp doesn't, does that mean he's not technically a human being? Or would you say he's a human with some developmental variations that are an anomaly but which doesn't redefine the definition of being a human being?

Exactly. It’s amazing that the SC know exactly what a woman is when it comes to who’s rights to take away. Maybe they need to explain it @Tandora who is struggling with what exactly a woman is. I’m just waiting for the famous article to appear

No answer on the prisons question. As usual.

Sex is binary. Reproduction is created via a sperm and an egg. There are no other factors. Not all male or female people are able to produce sperm or eggs but that doesn't change the fact that only a sperm and egg, produced by a male and female respectively, result in reproduction. You cannot get more binary than that.

I do note that's it's moved on from 'it never happens'.

Exactly this. Thank you for a great post, MrsTP.

you clearly haven’t understood my posts at all. I’ve never said that a woman who has some genetic:/
hormonal/ gonadal variations isn’t a woman. As I said, I’m not the one policing the biological boundaries of gender categories.

Of course your DP is a human being.

I recognise that it’s hard for people to understand that biological sex is a complex and diverse developmental process- but it’s true.

I just can’t understand the argument that ‘I accept trans women are women BUT agree there are/ can be issues with them being in women’s prisons’ So we do need a separate category for them then? If we’re just saying ‘they’re women, end of’ where’s the issue? Just saying ‘it’s nuanced, it’s not black and white’- isn’t an argument, you’re not explaining why it’s nuanced.

I don’t want to share certain spaces with people who have penises. Even though the majority of people with penises (be these men or trans women) will NOT harm me, the point is that you don’t know who will and who won’t. That’s literally the point of separating the sexes in certain situations. I have no problem with men, and no problem with trans women, living their lives freely and happily but not to the detriment of my own right (and the right of my daughters and all the other women out there), to feel safe.

If trans women are women, then women are a homogeneous group, so it is not possible to be anti-trans/transphobic/trans exclusionary. The only way someone can be labelled as anti-trans/transphobic/trans exclusionary is by acknowledging that trans women are different ie. not women.

As I said, I’m not the one policing the biological boundaries of gender categories.

I haven't seen anyone here even mention the 'boundaries of gender categories'.

We've been talking about sex.

God I'm sick of this shite.

Transwomen are male.

They are not women, not lesbians.

I'm sick of the homophobia in gender ideology.

I recognise that it’s hard for people to understand that biological sex is a complex and diverse developmental process- but it’s true.

So who do I allow into my womens prison? Who do I place into the men's estate,come to that? If I am faced with a female person with a beard and a double mastectomy, should I be accepting them into a male prison?

I believe that all women are born female, therefore a male cannot be a woman. Trans women are not actual biological women, which is the only way of truly being a woman. This is not a judgement on them, but purely scientific, biological fact. I'm sorry if that disturbs some people or hurts their feelings, but it doesn't change anything. Pretending otherwise only muddies the water and encourages abuse, as we've already seen.

Its not hateful to say i am a woman. Nor is it hateful to say transwomen are transwomen. My rights need protecting. So do theirs. It is not hateful to say someone without reproductive functioning or who has not experienced patriarchal discrimination in all its many forms also requires their rights and freedoms protecting. But no,we are not the same.

The function of sex is reproduction. Yes, things go wrong in development. Yes, people can be sexually attracted to people they can't possibly reproduce with, but that doesn't change the fact that sex is about reproduction.

I support trans rights as I do with all human rights but trans women are not women

Your options are odd. I support trans rights but trans women are not women they are trans women 🤷🏼‍♀️

People who identify as trans already have all the same rights as all other people.

@StolenCookie You’ve ignored a few people now who have asked if you consider Rachel Dolezal to be black.

She feels like she is. Do you agree? Is the outrage toward her warranted, or should black people accept her self ID, and not be allowed to define themselves in a way that would exclude her, and acknowledge her as doubly oppressed?

@StolenCookie @Tandora once again, are the people that feel and identify as children,children?

I recognise that it’s hard for people to understand that biological sex is a complex and diverse developmental process- but it’s true.

I've always understood sex to be determined by how egg and sperm fertilise.

Can you explain how it's complex and continues for years after birth?

Are you suggesting that genetics change as the body grows?

ok I’m not the one policing the boundaries of sex categories. Same point.

"The problem is that people think that being a “woman” is a “fact”, defined by binary biological “sex” - which they also believe to be fixed, objective and factual. None of this is accurately represents reality. “Woman” is a social category. The biology of human bodies is inexorably complicated and the science of sex development still in contestation."

Nonsense.
Ask renowned fertility expert Robert Winston. He has confirmed that there are very definite definitions of biological sex. Being a woman IS A FACT. XX chromosomes, the sexual pathway to produce large immotile gametes (whether they work or not, whether the female in question has a working uterus or not, whether it has been removed or not).
The incidence of DSDs is 0.018%. The incidence of ambiguous sexual organs in these cases is even less, and even then, karyotyping can determine is a baby is male or female.
There is not , and has never been, a third sex.

Which one of your parents did you fall out of? I'm willing to bet it was the female one. Which one provided the sperm?

This is true of the 6 BILLION people on the planet, as well as the BILLIONS of mammals living on the earth.
Go to a maternity ward. What do 100% of the patients there have in common? And what do 100% of the patients on a prostate cancer ward have in common?

Sex is binary, and it's really not as "complicated" as you and your likeminded pals like to think it is.
"Women" is not a "social category" - if it was, you can bet the millions of women oppressed over the ages, and women whose reproductive issues cause them tremendous pain, and girls who are subject to FGM, and women who are paid less for the same job, and women who are raped and beaten, and women who are second class citizens in their own countries due to religion or politics, would all have identified OUT of their category long ago.

Trans women are NOT women. By definition, they are biological males.
That is a FACT.

And you are of course entitled to your own opinions.
You are NOT entitled to your own FACTS.