To wonder if no one on Mumsnet believes that trans women are women?

[StolenCookie]

I’ve been lurking on the site for months, enjoying AIBU and laughing at some of the posts.

But yesterday I commented on a topic regarding the language around trans women, and the views expressed were very extreme.

Is there anyone at all on Mumsnet who, like me, did not realise how anti-trans this site is? Does anyone believe, unreservedly, that trans women are women?

YABU - trans women are not women.
YANBU - I support trans rights

What is your definition of a “biological woman”?

So hold on, you won’t define woman but are now expecting us to do your emotional Labour for you? No, go and educate yourself. I suggest a really useful tool called a dictionary.

Instead of saying 'I am so shocked that lots of mumsnet users think trans women are not women! This is so toxic and you are all awful' maybe you should wonder why so many women think so, find out a bit more about it.

Lots of people have been wandering about in a daze supporting self ID and women losing their safe spaces thinking they're doing the right thing and being kind. They don't realise the impact all of this has and will have on women and girls in so many ways, their safety, their opportunities.

I support trans rights, I support trans people living their lives free from abuse and hate. But self ID and the repression of sex based language is a Trojan horse,

@Conflictedunicorn I doubt @Tandora would consult a dictionary. They tend to be factual and contain words neither of which tandora believes exist.

Oh yeah. Forgot @Tandora was fact and word phobic.

Oh ffs.

"People are whatever they say they feel they are".

So that white woman Rachel Dolezal who wanted to be black so wore fake tan, permed her hair, pretended to be black and made herself a spokeswoman for black people, actually was black was she? Because she wanted to be?

I seem to remember outrage about that. What's the difference?

FOR THE CONFUSED AND THE LURKERS
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

What is your definition of a “biological woman”?

I'll play: an adult human whose body has developed along the pathway associated with the ability to gestate and bear young.

Now your turn: what is your definition of "social category woman"?

Emotional labour 😂. Get over yourself. I don’t know what you mean when you say a trans woman is not a “biological woman” because I don’t know how you are defining a “biological woman”. You can’t throw chromosomes- millions of women are xx. Plenty of women don’t have overuse or a womb. Hormones don’t work either. So what ?

you want my definition of sex and gender? Here it is:

Sex is used to refer to the system of scientific and cultural knowledge that gives meaning to anatomical differences concerning the sexual and reproductive functions of bodies.
This may include descriptions of a person’s chromosomes, gonads, hormones, reproductive organs and genitalia.

Gender, on the other hand, refers to the social, psychological and biological mechanisms through which persons understand and experience themselves, as well as perceive an relate to others, as men, women, non-binary, or otherwise (sexually) embodied persons.

What's actually quite sad is non trans people fighting on behalf of trans people and actually stuffing up their cause.

Like any fight for rights there is always the far right groups of extremes who shout loud.

But fundamentally you have a group of people who believe they were been into the wrong body. They have gender dysphoria which can be really debilitating both physically and mentally.

You then get posters like the OP confusing their fight and spouting confused semi arguments over the internet and accusing a whole website of being transphobic - not realising they aren't helping the cause they seem to think they can fight for.

You have someone saying if someone feels like a woman they believe they are a woman. Fighting for someone who actually knows what it's like to be biologically male and feel like a woman (what they feel a woman is).

The same as when men fight for woman's rights, able bodied people fight for disabled rights and heterosexual people fight for homosexual rights.

We actually cannot fight for the rights of people who's lives we've haven't experienced.

I've always respected black and other races coming out and saying people can't and shouldn't fight for their rights having not lived the black experience.

Same for other minority groups.

My ds is disabled. We've often joked if we had £1 for everyone who thought they can describe what life is like for him and tell him what he thinks and feels and what would make life better we could have both retired at his birth!

I've actually started saying I'm GNB. Why? Because I'm biologically a woman. I don't identify as anything except myself and refuse to allow anyone to force me to gender stereotype myself as a woman.

*through not throw

This sums up my view.

You cannot change biological sex. That is fact, not belief.

Sorry for all the typos!!

Gender, on the other hand, refers to the social, psychological and biological mechanisms through which persons understand and experience themselves, as well as perceive an relate to others, as men, women, non-binary, or otherwise (sexually) embodied persons.

No, this won't do I'm afraid. It relies on a shared understanding of the words "men" and "women", and therein the problem lies.

Shhh we’re not allowed to mention facts. They trigger @tandora

I believe trans women are women, but there are complicated issues of protecting vulnerable women like those in refuges.

And these complicated issues are the reason why so many people rally against the blanket statement that ''trans women are women''.

Because after the dust has settled on that, and the banners are put down and everyone's had a breather, where do we allow people who were born male to go or not go?

Joyfully cheering on anyone's right to 'be' anything they like is wonderful when you don't have to sort out the fall out from that. The legalities which protect other groups.

🙄

woman is a contested category for sure. But for the most part we do have a shared understanding of these terms in the sense that when we go about our day to day lives we immediately and easily judge and categorise people as men or women/ boys or girls (and not by testing their chromosomes or inspecting their genitalia). For the most part we agree. My 3 year old is already very good at doing this.

Sex is used to refer to the system of scientific and cultural knowledge that gives meaning to anatomical differences concerning the sexual and reproductive functions of bodies.
This may include descriptions of a person’s chromosomes, gonads, hormones, reproductive organs and genitalia

@Tandora what word would you use to describe someone who has XX chromosomes and a vagina?

What word would you use to describe someone with XY chromosomes and a penis?

I think a good analogy is the one a pp mentioned upthread.

Some adult people 'feel' they are still a child. They dress and behave like a child in some or all circumstances.

I support their right to feel like a child.
I support their right to dress and behave how they please.

I do not however believe they ARE children. To believe that would be to believe that they have children's right and could access children's spaces and services. But they aren't, so they can't.

easily judge and categorise people as men or women/ boys or girls (and not by testing their chromosomes or inspecting their genitalia)

But how are you suggesting we are doing this, if not by (almost immediately) recognising their sex?

Well most people with xx chromosomes and a vagina are called women.
And most people with xy chromosomes and a penis are called men.
but not always

And it’s very important to note that when I go about my day to day life and meet men and women, I mostly don’t see their genitals, and I never see their chromosomes. So I don’t base my judgements about their gender on these factors. How could I?

Tandora babies can tell the difference between males and females because we, like other animals, have an innate ability to tell what sex members of our species are. That's why we all know this TWAW isn't what people really believe. Even OP admits they don't really believe it.

Do their genitals and chromosomes have no effect on the rest of their body?

All this wide eyed "well what IS a woman?" stuff is such disingenuous bullshit.