To be totally gutted for American women?

[Anothernamechangeplease]

The US Supreme Court has reversed the Roe v Wade ruling. Millions of American women have lost their right to make decisions about what happens to their own bodies.

I have never had an abortion and personally, I'm not sure if I ever could, but I have always been passionately of the view that individual women should be able to make that choice for themselves. It's awful that this right has been removed for so many.

Happy to be corrected but my understanding is that they're not banning abortion. They're banning women just accessing it on a whim at any point during a pregnancy. From what I can gather from what I've read, you'll still be able to get an abortion before 12 weeks (depending on the state) - they're basically giving ownership to the different states.

WHY should women be allowed to just abort an otherwise healthy foetus because they're simply changed their mind?

You can get a safe abortion - at an appropriate time during the pregnancy - ie as early as possible.

From what I can gather from what I've read, you'll still be able to get an abortion before 12 weeks (depending on the state) - they're basically giving ownership to the different states

You do realise that there are many states which have now banned it.

So what do you do if you live in one of those states ?

Let's re-word that shall we

Wanted baby vs unwanted baby.

You're still killing one - whether you like the sound of what you're doing or not. Changing the word doesn't change the fact.

Abort as early as possible when as everyone is saying it's 'just a bunch of cells' - women know how they've got pregnant, it's not a big surprise, take ownership of that and do something about it. No, don't wait 4,5,6,7 months and then decide you're not having it.

That's where my issue is and everyone else's issue should be. Abortion should not be a form of birth control - and people talk about it as being normal. It should never be normal, it should be the exception .

But many of those women won't be able to afford to travel to other states. What happens to them then? What happens to the child when it's born? Do you really believe that every woman who gives birth to a baby she didn't want will somehow transform into a maternal goddess? If that woman can't take care of herself, how the fuck is she going to cope with a child forced upon her?

But you've been told on this thread that virtually no woman has an abortion at the gestations you are talking about, unless for medical/health reasons of the mother or baby. There is no reason to ban early abortions which the vast majority are. The kinds of abortion you are concerned about already are the absolute exception and not the norm. You are supporting the total ban of abortions even for the health of the mother, because you won't risk that one woman might try to get an abortion for choice only past 16/20/24 weeks gestation.

In 2019, 79% of all U.S. abortions occurred prior to the 10th week of gestation; 93% occurred prior to 14 weeks’ gestation (CDC).

In the UK it's around 97 percent in the first trimester.

WHY should women be allowed to just abort an otherwise healthy foetus because they're simply changed their mind?

Because it's their body and their life, and they, not you or anyone else, get to decide whether they should risk tearing, permanent injury and death all for a lifetime commitment for which you and your barmy army will give no support?

Abort as early as possible when as everyone is saying it's 'just a bunch of cells' - women know how they've got pregnant, it's not a big surprise, take ownership of that and do something about it. No, don't wait 4,5,6,7 months and then decide you're not having it

I have said many times on MN that the "as early as possible, as late as necessary" so beloved of posters on FWR is actually harmful to campaigns for abortion rights. The comment above beautifully illustrates why.

The scenario outlined above simply doesn't happen. Check out UK statistics. The numbers of very late abortions are tiny and I don't believe happened because a woman changed her mind on a whim but clearly some people think they do.

Happy to be corrected but my understanding is that they're not banning abortion

Maybe do some more reading

Here is a start
www.theguardian.com/law/2022/jun/24/what-states-have-abortion-trigger-laws.

"WHY should women be allowed to just abort an otherwise healthy foetus because they're simply changed their mind? "

This is the crux of it, really. You don't believe that a woman should have total say over what she is required to do with her body. For you, it's acceptable to force that woman, against her express will and in a situation she doesn't want to be in, to risk her life, health, mental health for the duration of pregnancy and be forced to give birth. Then to either be forced unwilling into parenting or face the trauma of handing the baby over to state care.

Never mind that in most cases, that woman will likely try to find other ways to end the pregnancy and may risk death, injury, etc etc through pursuing that.

The problem is as late as necessary has to be included because life limiting factors aren't picked up till the twenty week scan.

As an opponent of what's been decided I suppose I'm playing devil's advocate here, but let's not forget that the "As early as possible and as late as necessary" mantra can also lead to extreme positions. On a previous thread on this topic, which I'll remember until the day I die, the late as necessary bit finally turned into someone advocating infanticide, providing it was only done in the child's very early days

It's perfectly true that late abortions are a minority, but it's also worth remembering where these campaigns can lead - and as said, that's coming from someone who's in favour of the right to abortion

Happy to be corrected but my understanding is that they're not banning abortion

It will vary from state to state. Arizona has been included in the list of problematic states but it has or will have its own law setting it at 15 weeks, which is better than France, Germany or Ireland but others will indeed ban it.

The thing is, total bans will produce an increase in actual infanticides.

Absolutely agree. Those threads always throw up extreme views on both sides. You get the "no abortion, ever" crowd on the one hand. On the other hand, if you don't support abortion to term with no need for any reason, you are a "forced birther"

Abort as early as possible when as everyone is saying it's 'just a bunch of cells' - women know how they've got pregnant, it's not a big surprise, take ownership of that and do something about it. No, don't wait 4,5,6,7 months and then decide you're not having it

Brain development and problems with it can be picked up at the 20 week scan. then there will be an MRI to confirm, then there are consultation, people need time to make up their mind, understandably so. This is how it comes to late abortions, not because someone woke up one morning and though, bugger that, I don't fancy being pregnant anymore.

Sometimes the woman is diagnosed with a serious condition late in the pregnancy. Then what?

These cases are very very rare. They happen, but it not something to focus on.

The thing is, total bans will produce an increase in actual infanticides

Sadly this is true, but the PP wasn't regretting something that might happen - they were actually advocating for the right for it to be done, which is why I suggested it can be wise to look out for one extreme position leading to others

Abortion isn't an option for failed contraceptives. Make better choices!

Women fought for the contraceptive pill back in the 60's. Freedom for women they said (and they were right)

Now we're finding for abortion in the same manner??

And actually no. I think your 'right's ' change once you have another living being inside of you. Those 'just a bunch of cells' are called 'human tissue' when harvested for something for research.

I've always said - there will be exceptions. We need ways of supporting those exceptions - sure. But we shouldn't be demanding abortion on demand as thought it's no big deal.

Women need the right to an abortion as soon as possible and as late as necessary. No debate.

if you don’t like abortions you are free to choose not to have one.

"Abortion isn't an option for failed contraceptives."

That is exactly what it is for. Because no contraceptive is 100%, various things can interfere with its effectiveness and women or girls in poverty, chaotic circumstances and so on are not necessarily capable of "making better choices".

So how are you going to support women to make better choices @CoastalWave ? Are you going to campaign for better education, better access to contraceptives, improved sex education,
money to be spent on maternity services and social care and improving foster care and early years support?
Telling women to make better choices is so fucking patronising. Pregnancy isn't always a choice and why is it always up
to the women to make better choices? Are you campaigning too for men to be educated about using contraception and not raping women? Thought not.

The cut off for abortions is 23 weeks in the uk, 24-27 in the USA.

That's a surprisingly early cut off point considering many women don't have their anomaly scan till later than 20 weeks due to demand on the system. That's three weeks to make a heartwrenching decision regardless of what you choose and how poor the outcomes might be if you choose to give birth. It's certainly not treated in the blase way some posters suggest, like a whim.
So infanticide being argued as the same as abortion is an absolute strawman.

It’s dreadful. If a women doesn’t want to use her body to grow the embryo then she should not be made to.

why don’t we go the whole hog and legislate to compel people who are a match to donate their kidneys to anyone who needs them? Save a life (and an actual person this time, not a bunch of cells) - check! Risk to the donor - check!

It’s because the alternative is to give birth to a baby you don’t want. How do you make them want that kid?

Abortion isn't an option for failed contraceptives.

That statement makes no sense. If a woman is using contraception it's because she doesn't want to get pregnant, so if that contraception fails (which, as you know, it does on occasions), then what? If the pregnancy is unwanted for whatever reason, then abortion is the only way to prevent it from progressing.