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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Debating between these two countries. Which is better to bring children up in?

572 replies

Mixedfeelings89 · 23/06/2022 19:33

England or America. I am from England, Husband is American. We are not rich, nor poor therefore we would be living a average lifestyle. My only concern is which country will be better for the children? If we didn't have children I wouldn't really care which country either way. I just want the best for the children. Children are not yet school age, if that makes a difference.

Thanks in advance.

OP posts:
smashmakesmash · 29/06/2022 14:18

@Moanranger
What principle? That makes no sense at all. You presumably lived in the UK while abortions weren't allowed in Northern Ireland. You didn't move elsewhere on principle. Talk about meaningless virtue signaling.

mathanxiety · 29/06/2022 19:43

@Delatron, you and many other posters here are clearly ignorant of the way the federal and state relationship works.

The US is not a monolithic state. It is comprised of fifty states, each with its own government, and many powers vented in it, powers that go way beyond the devolution of Scotland, Wales, NI. Each state has its own House and Senate, its own state Supreme Court, and can make trade agreements for its own state with foreign governments and can compete with other states to attract business, using taxes and other means. Interstate commerce has its own rules and regulations. Moving girls across state lines for sexual exploitation was one of the crimes Jeffrey Epstein was charged with.

States set their own speed limits and on intercontinental highways, set their own DUI limits, their own rules on motorbike helmets, on abortion availability, on constituency drawing, on election rules. They levy state income taxes and other taxes. They have their own separate education systems, school graduation requirements, state health and welfare administration, and their own state university systems, and much more.

States constitute their own little political and cultural ecosystems (actually most states are far bigger and more self contained than the average Brit can imagine) and regions with similar cultures develop. Hence the American Civil War.

My state locked down early during the pandemic, it made masks mandatory, and is still running vaccination ads on radio and TV. It expanded medicaid under the ACA Act. For several terms now, it has been represented by two Democratic senators in the US Senate, and the majority, if not all, of the elected state administrators ( secretary of state, comptroller, etc) are Democrats.

I don't know why you thought you could get away with the damning judgement you posted on people who are happy to raise children in the US and see cause for hope in it - 'desensitised' are we? - especially since you have clearly managed to accommodate yourself to the massive and apparently intractable issues besetting the UK.

The Tories have a huge majority in the House of Commons. Clearly there are plenty of people - in England anyway - who are happy to see a government lurching into neoliberal wet dream territory, and resigned to whatever horrors Brexit brings to the average British home, with attendant decimation of prospects for young people. No doubt you will disavow all of that though, or point fingers at the first past the post system (which needs changing btw).

What is happening in many parts of the US right now is on its way to the UK, with the open arms of the Tory voting public waiting for it. The Heritage Foundation and the Mercer family, the masterminds of the Trump election and the ongoing MAGA movement, have well and truly sunk their claws into the Tories. Anyone who thinks the UK is immune to developments in the US is fooling herself.

It seems you are also ignorant of pressure groups in the US working against the gun lobby or for women's rights and voting rights. As a member of Moms Demand Action along with over ten million others in every state and DC, I resent the implication that people in America are complacent and have given up caring. It is possible to hate what's going on and work for change and also send your children off to school without worrying that they'll be shot. It's possible for children to rehearse drills for shooters, for tornadoes, or for fires without being scarred for life.

mathanxiety · 29/06/2022 19:57

Your post of 15:04 yesterday is just fucking offensive, @Delatron.

It's so wide of the truth that you really didn't need to explain that you've never lived in the US. Believe me, it's obvious.

Delatron · 29/06/2022 20:01

@mathanxiety You can defend it as much as you like. I really don’t care about different speed limits etc etc.

I studied American politics at university. I know exactly how it all works thank you for spelling it out..

You still couldn’t pay me to live over there. I don’t really care that it’s better in one state than another. Have a read through the thread. Im really not alone. There’s not a whole
lot of love for the U.S at the moment. Despite your attempts to claim every state should be judged as a separate country.

No we won’t ever have guns over here and that’s the issue that concerns me the most. I’m pleased that in your little corner of the US it’s not a concern.

I’ve said I don’t agree with Brexit. But I still don’t want to live in the US. Sorry if that offends you.

Many expats are leaving in their droves. What does that tell you?

And sorry but I think rehearsing drills for shooters and seeing what is in the news constantly does affect children. Again more denial.

mathanxiety · 29/06/2022 20:05

And yes, you can do something about traffic deaths in the UK, @Delatron.

You can start a chapter of MADD if drink driving is a factor in road deaths of children in your area or anywhere else, press your local council or MP to reduce local speed limits, put up speed reminder signs, traffic cameras, and plenty more.

MADD was founded in California, iirc, by mothers concerned about drunk drivers, ordinary American women who got mad and made a difference.

Delatron · 29/06/2022 20:10

Oh bloody hell @mathanxiety I don’t want to live in the US because of your gun laws and recent rulings on abortion. My personal opinion.

Stop going on about road traffic accidents please. It’s not relevant to the thread.

The OP asked whether she should stay in the U.K. (the blighted North!!) or move to Florida. Where there are indeed guns and the potential for children to get shot at school. I’ve given my opinion on this. I’m pleased the guns and abortion rulings have no impact on your lovely life in the U.S but it’s not relevant to a move to Florida.

Delatron · 29/06/2022 20:12

No drink driving is not a factor in road traffic accidents in my area. But thanks, this is all very relevant 🙄

Delatron · 29/06/2022 20:13

Though we did campaign the local MP
to reduce the speed limit near the school and that works. So there you go.

Moanranger · 29/06/2022 23:14

smash you know nothing about me, yet you claim I decided to leave the US for reasons other than principles? That’s pretty presumptuous! I won’t get into the detail, but I left & remain here for a combination of practicality (socialised medicine) and reasons of principle - I was against a number of US govt policies that were ascendant at the time. I could probably have had a pretty good life in California where I was from, but chose to make a life here, where I felt, on balance, I was attuned to the social & political values. That’s what it means to take a stand based on principles.

ItWillBeOkHonestly · 29/06/2022 23:39

I have lived in both but there's no place like home (the UK). As stretched as our health care system can be, it's a relief to know it's there. Plus school shootings would worry me a great deal.

mathanxiety · 30/06/2022 05:27

Stop going on about road traffic accidents please. It’s not relevant to the thread.

@Delatron
It is absolutely relevant to your comments, which I am answering.

Up to recently, road accidents were the leading cause of death for American children. Road accidents remain the number one killer of children in the UK. 24,000 people are killed or seriously injured on UK roads every year, 16,000 of them children.

You keep on accusing Americans and those living in America of complacency, and that is offensive, particularly when you freely admit you've never been to the US and the 'knowledge' you claim is second hand at best - hearsay in other words.

You said road deaths were different from gun related deaths because with gun deaths people should be doing something about it, whereas nothing can be done about road deaths. Then after I mentioned an organisation of ten million members campaigning for gun sense in the US you claimed to have done a bit of bothering of the local MP about traffic safety...

You need to keep up with your own statements.

And you seriously need to start trying to understand the implications of the fact that the fifty states and the federal government don't have the relationship of UK counties or even devolved regions to Westminster. US government is not centralised the way you seem to think it is.

Sw1ft · 30/06/2022 06:03

You don’t need to live in the US to know that the gun issue and the new abortion rules are not deemed ok by the maj of Americans. It’s all over social media.

They are struggling and fighting a crappy political system and disturbing influences outside of the US.

I love the US. It’s a stunningly beautiful and amazing country.There are many reasons why I’d move and raise kids there( there are many reasons I don’t like raising kids in the U.K.) however the gun issue in schools and the anxiety that comes with it for children and parents would worry me. Re abortion you fight it,you don’t run away so that wouldn’t be deemed a reason not to live there.

It’s tough op, what does your husband say?

mathanxiety · 30/06/2022 06:17

I studied American politics at university. I know exactly how it all works thank you for spelling it out..
@Delatron
Your posts show no evidence whatsoever of any knowledge or insight into how America works.

American history is the subject that would tell you all you need to know about states v federal government, actually.

You still couldn’t pay me to live over there. I don’t really care that it’s better in one state than another. Have a read through the thread. Im really not alone.
You don't care because you don't understand the implications of the federal setup. If you understood it you wouldn't be making the scathing and sweeping generalisations you are making, and insisting that states are the equivalent of British counties.

There’s not a whole lot of love for the U.S at the moment. Despite your attempts to claim every state should be judged as a separate country.
My 'attempts to claim'... Again, you don't understand how US government works.

Your study of 'American politics' should be telling you that I'm right, but you seem to be insisting that your knowledge and insight are superior here. This is a pity because you're wrong.

No we won’t ever have guns over here and that’s the issue that concerns me the most. I’m pleased that in your little corner of the US it’s not a concern.
Again the scathing accusation of apathy. This is tiresome and unwarranted and downright offensive considering the huge number of individuals actively involved in campaigning for gun control.

I’ve said I don’t agree with Brexit. But I still don’t want to live in the US. Sorry if that offends you.
You will have chlorinated chicken, beef fattened in feed lots, pork riddled with antibiotics, a for-profit healthcare industry will replace the NHS, coal mines will reopen, coal-fired power stations will be dusted off and put into use, and the death penalty will be reinstated in the UK within ten years. Abortion will be restricted, paid maternity leave will be significantly cut, and food stamps will replace cash benefits. All of the above will be eagerly embraced by the British public, or what remains of it once Scotland and NI break free.

Many expats are leaving in their droves. What does that tell you?
Do you have a source for this highly specific nugget of information?

And are you aware that people leave the UK too? There are British people living in Spain, Portugal, Ireland, US, Australia, France, New Zealand... What does that tell you?

Americans have always left the US. The trend accelerated when Trump was elected. My own children are very happy to have somewhere else to go with no questions asked, if they choose.

And sorry but I think rehearsing drills for shooters and seeing what is in the news constantly does affect children. Again more denial.
Why do you think children are 'seeing what is in the news constantly'?

What you think about drills (for shooters, for tornadoes, for fires - all are carried out) and what is an actual fact might well be two different entities. You are entitled to your opinion, but not to state your opinion as fact.
What I am doing is disagreeing with your opinion. This is not the same thing as denial.

RenegadeMatron · 30/06/2022 06:26

You will have chlorinated chicken, beef fattened in feed lots, pork riddled with antibiotics, a for-profit healthcare industry will replace the NHS, coal mines will reopen, coal-fired power stations will be dusted off and put into use, and the death penalty will be reinstated in the UK within ten years. Abortion will be restricted, paid maternity leave will be significantly cut, and food stamps will replace cash benefits. All of the above will be eagerly embraced by the British public, or what remains of it once Scotland and NI break free.

Can I get a copy of your crystal ball?

You are entitled to your opinion, but not to state your opinion as fact.

LOL, given the above ^^ Grin

mathanxiety · 30/06/2022 06:34

You can read the current and future Tory manifestos, aka my crystal ball, and you can follow the deepening ties between the Tories and the American Conservative flank on many news sites.

You can also look at news stories about big donors to the Tory party and ask yourself what these individuals are hoping to get in return.

The Mercer family funded the Brexit campaign and that of Donald Trump, and the Tories are falling over themselves to get into bed with the Heritage Foundation, an organisation funded by the Koch brothers, cigarette manufacturers, and oil money. Needless to say, it is a climate change denier.

Classicblunder · 30/06/2022 06:50

I am married to an American and most of my mother's family are in the US so I have visited a lot and considered carefully where to live.

I agree with a PP that actually the guns/abortion stuff can feel quite far away if you're in a very blue state and it has never been a big part of my reasons not to move there. For me there are more cultural reasons major and minor:

I have a licence but don't like driving very much and that's genuinely very life limiting in the US

There is a huge difference in terms of level of involvement in school and extra curriculars expected - and it sounds much much harder for working parents without family support. My SIL's kids go to school 8-2, no childcare available (except hiring a nanny), loooooong summer holidays which you can't really cover with your 10 days annual leave. Extra curriculars expect parents to volunteer/fundraise.

I am not sure when all is said and done if the taxes are actually lower - federal tax is lower than income tax but there are so many state and local and school and property taxes. Then a complex set of deductions you can make. It's pretty hard to tell to be honest!

I think generally lifestyle is just different - I can't wrap my head around only getting 10 days annual leave a year off but my SIL can't imagine living with two kids in a house the size of ours in London 😁

The healthcare there if you have good insurance is amazing but I would find it very stressful having to consider that every time I moved jobs. My SIL has been doing a dead end job career wise for years because it is a great health care deal for her family.

This varies from state to state but it does often feel less acceptable to be atheist and in a mixed race marriage - both of which are true for us.

RenegadeMatron · 30/06/2022 07:17

mathanxiety · 30/06/2022 06:34

You can read the current and future Tory manifestos, aka my crystal ball, and you can follow the deepening ties between the Tories and the American Conservative flank on many news sites.

You can also look at news stories about big donors to the Tory party and ask yourself what these individuals are hoping to get in return.

The Mercer family funded the Brexit campaign and that of Donald Trump, and the Tories are falling over themselves to get into bed with the Heritage Foundation, an organisation funded by the Koch brothers, cigarette manufacturers, and oil money. Needless to say, it is a climate change denier.

Nonetheless. You are entitled to your opinion, but not to state your opinion as fact. Wink

mathanxiety · 30/06/2022 07:21

There is a huge difference in terms of level of involvement in school and extra curriculars expected - and it sounds much much harder for working parents without family support. My SIL's kids go to school 8-2, no childcare available (except hiring a nanny), loooooong summer holidays which you can't really cover with your 10 days annual leave. Extra curriculars expect parents to volunteer/fundraise.

Public schools have excellent extra curriculars laid on and not requiring parental involvement to organise or schlep children to games, etc. There are booster clubs which organise fund raisers, but a lot of schools are able to fund extra curriculars without the support of parent groups. Music, theatre, sports are all catered for. Booster clubs provide nice extras but certainly my local high school could tick over nicely without those extras.

Kids are in school from 8-3 here. I used to wave off my oldest DD at 5:30 am for her swim practice before school and often didn't see her again on meet days until 10 pm. On ordinary before and after school practice days she was gone from before 5:30 am until about 6 pm.

Private elementary schools and high schools require parental involvement in fundraising because the separation of church and state means no state or federal money goes toward any element of private education except for loaned books. Parents raise a lot of money to support the schools and extra curriculars, volunteer as coaches and club leaders, schlep their own children to games at elementary level (and do a lot of carpooling) - though at high school level private schools tend to own fleets of minibuses and hire professional coaches for sports. Many private elementary schools (especially RC, Lutheran, and Jewish) run wrap around care for children from age 3 on, starting at 7am and ending at 6pm. This option is very much in demand where I live.

Yes, parents rely on extended family and on local park district camps a lot for summer care for their kids. They also hire local teens in their thousands to supervise children for the summer. American teens have drivers licenses at age 16 and children can be driven to activities or to the local pool in the family car. Nannies are not usually the only summer option. Community organisations aside from park districts also provide summer activities and care for school children (libraries, etc). Many families send their children to year round daycare until school age (5).

School districts also provide free summer meal packets to families receiving free school meals during the school year. During the pandemic, my local public schools continued to provide this service in a safely distanced way, with the difference that anyone could receive the meals if they turned up on pick up day.

Volunteering is an equal opportunity activity in the US and imo it's one major cultural difference between the US and countries with a more hidebound social hierarchy.

mathanxiety · 30/06/2022 07:23

Nonetheless. You are entitled to your opinion, but not to state your opinion as fact.

It's not an opinion. Have you read the current government's aspirations for the country? Basically, the UK is to be turned into the 51st state in all but name.

User48751490 · 30/06/2022 07:28

After the Dunblane incident, Scotland changed their gun laws. Immediately something was done. This just doesn't seem to be the case in the US.

Classicblunder · 30/06/2022 07:32

@mathanxiety yeah that's not been my American family's experience re school, extra curriculars and childcare availability. I am sure some people do use teenagers to babysit but my family aren't too keen on 16 year old babysitters and I can't blame them! I definitely wouldn't want a 16 year old supervising my primary age kids swimming.

User48751490 · 30/06/2022 07:33

I have noticed that a lot of foods in the US are very processed. Loads of artificial crap in it.
And that's just from what I observe online!

The cereals🤢

GylesBrandrethNewJumper · 30/06/2022 07:34

mathanxiety · 30/06/2022 07:23

Nonetheless. You are entitled to your opinion, but not to state your opinion as fact.

It's not an opinion. Have you read the current government's aspirations for the country? Basically, the UK is to be turned into the 51st state in all but name.

Such hyperbole.

User48751490 · 30/06/2022 07:35

Another shit aspect is the tiny amount of annual leave you are entitled to over in the US. Awful. People deserve a holiday!

Delatron · 30/06/2022 07:48

@mathanxiety Where have I ‘freely admitted I’ve never been to the US?’

Ive been many, many times. I already stated I spent 5 weeks there researching a move to actually live there. Which after all my research I decided strongly against.

You are just making things up. But carry on it’s quite funny to read all your dire ‘predictions’ for the U.K