Debating between these two countries. Which is better to bring children up in?

[Mixedfeelings89]

England or America. I am from England, Husband is American. We are not rich, nor poor therefore we would be living a average lifestyle. My only concern is which country will be better for the children? If we didn't have children I wouldn't really care which country either way. I just want the best for the children. Children are not yet school age, if that makes a difference.

Thanks in advance.

As an American, I read these replies with interest. Wow, we are really despicable, aren't we?
-Yes, you must have insurance but most companies provide or subsidize it. So there is no wait time for surgeries, even elective. Insurance also provides that obstetricians and pediatricians - not midwives and health visitors - support pregnancies.
-Vaccinations for everything are available (free through the health department) including chicken pox, and polio. Also now covid for children over age 2.
-The legal drinking age is 21. Yes, some kids get by that, but there is not the crowd of drunken teenagers staggering around town every Friday and Saturday night and filling up the Emergency Room (A&E).
-There is more school choice. Home school, on-line school, religious school, private (fee-paying) school, public (free, including transport) school, and special schools for SEN, the gifted, the talented, sports, etc.
-You don't need passports to vacation. You can drive to three different oceans, to the high mountains to ski or the low mountains to hike. Camp in national parks or view active volcanoes.
-Most people won't bother to read all 12 pages, but I wanted to speak up for my country. You are welcome to come and see for yourself.

Just throwing it out here: states like California offer a safe haven for women seeking an abortion but states like Texas have already passed laws making it illegal to assist a pregnant woman in Texas to travel to another state to obtain an abortion. And they have made it clear that they intend to enforce those laws.

Well said @GeorgiaGirl52. There is a certain section of posters on MN - too many, sadly - who are more than happy to denigrate any country which isn't part of the UK. It happens time after time on any thread about life in another part of the world. For what it's worth I live in neither the UK nor the US, but if I could visit one it wouldn't be the UK.

I am also reading these replies with interest and I find myself wondering why @GeorgiaGirl52 presents the idea of not having midwives as a positive. We also don't have postpartum health visitors. Maybe that contributes to the US having the highest maternal and infant death rates in the developed world. You also have to consider that rural health care facilities are routinely disappearing because healthcare in the US is provided by for profit entities and not by the government.

Health insurance is offered by employers. If you have a very good job. I happen to have a very good job, and one of the best insurance policies available. It is heavily subsidized by my employer. It also costs me 22,000 a year.

If you want to move to the US, this is a factor you have to consider.

Midwives exist in the US and are available in most urban areas. My fifth DC was delivered by a midwife and her student midwife almost 21 years ago. at the time my health insurance was kidcare, a programme for pregnant women and babies, and children up to five iirc. I didn't have to pay a penny for excellent, sustained care with the midwife group (three midwives) whom I saw for all pre natal appointments and for delivery, and my care included management of GD and three sessions with a dietitian. I had a private room in a local hospital.

If you want to practice as a midwife in the US you have to first becomes a registered nurse and gain experience in nursing, and then go on to postgrad training which includes hands on experience with a fully licensed midwife supervising you and graduate with a Masters in Nursing-Midwifery, after which you have to pass the CPM exam for professional accreditation. In the UK, you go straight into midwifery training without getting a RN qualification, and this is a sad state of affairs.
American midwives make from $75k to $130K per year. Some make more.

www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/hospitals-by-ownership/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D
Percentages of various ownership of hospitals, by state. There are state/county hospitals, not-for-profit hospitals, and for profit hospitals listed. The majority of US hospitals are not-for-profit, with the vast majority state/county-owned plus not-for-profit.

This is Mumsnet. What answer do you think you're going to get? It's normal for people to prefer their own country, especially when it comes to where you'd want to raise your children, unless it truly offers no opportunity for them or is in a major war.

Kidcare is a government sponsored health insurance that is only available in the state of Florida and would not be available if OP locates to another state. If she does locate to Florida, she would have to check her eligibility as a foreign national

Urban areas is also a consideration. There is no provision for pre natal care in many rural areas, so that would also be a consideration if she plans to have more children or if she has daughters of child bearing age.

Florida ranks #32 out of fifty for highest maternal death rates.

No one has mentioned the traffic in UK. I have many colleagues that routinely drove over 4 hours a day round trip to work per-covid. No affordable housing near the workplace, along with ridiculous traffic just to go a short distance.

The only people I know that have ever done similar in US did it by choice.

Also, a petty point, but the tiny parking spaces in UK make me anxious.

If you're not rich/ not poor, it has to be the UK. If anything even vaguely intensive happens to your health, you can easily go broke dealing with it. Health insurance is not a guarantee.

In 750,000 bankruptcies in one year, 500,000 cited medical bills as being one of the causes.

Florida is often humid, as well as hot, politically I'd find it very tough, and all of that is before you even consider the current culture.

Why Scotland? I don't think it's any better than England. I actually think the towns in Scotland are generally speaking more run down and depressing if anything. (I live there).

I wouldn't even live in Florida without children.

I’m biased, as I’m a Brit but live in the US. I’m in a blue city, in a blue county, in a blue state, so even though I hear everyone’s concerns, I’m not overly concerned. I love living in the US.

Partner and I are both self employed with top notch healthcare (which we pay for thru Costco) and plenty of holidays, and our standard of living is much, much better than we’d ever have back in the UK. No waiting for referrals for specialists, if I want to see anyone from a dermatologist to a rheumatologist to a pediatric cardiologist, I just look up the preferred providers on my plan and make an appointment. I just had a hip replacement with no wait time, which cost us under $2k (which we paid for with our pre tax dollars, so more like $1.2 and is tax deductible as we’re self employed ).

We have a large home, 6 bed/5 bath, 3,600 sq feet (sorry I can’t do metric anymore) with in ground pool/spa, play equipment for the children, and walking distance to restaurants. The cost of living is affordable, from petrol to eating out, clothing and our home bills. The weather where we are is mild in winter, and from spring to autumn, it’s sunny everyday. As soon as work is over, we’re in the pool with the girls, and weekends feel like a mini-break with friends and family over for get-togethers.

The “gritty” element of our lives in London is gone. I remember being spat on, harassed in the streets (we’re a mixed race family), grueling work week and grim dirty public transport, dog dirt on the pavement, is all a dim and distant memory. We both now work from home which probably makes us more insular, but I do believe the quality of our life is better regardless. The neighborhood in which we live is a planned community, beautiful with trails and woodlands, dog dirt pick up stations, water fountains, parks and play equipment. It’s not for everyone, but it works well for us.

I have an autoimmune disease that makes me flare badly in cold weather, which also puts me off returning to the UK. I still love the UK btw, and LOVE Brits in general, not dissing anyones choices here. Just giving an alternative point of view from someone who’s lived in both countries.

Re the health insurance: DH had a very good job in the USA, and our health insurance didn't cost us a penny. Yes I believe it was listed as a benefit we had to pay tax on, but we were not paying thousands a year for it, actually nothing at all. Is this a difference between states? We only paid the copay and deductibles when we used it.

It does sound as though OP and her family would have to pay for this so it's moot really.

I think it depends where in both countries. I have friends who've lived in the states with families and had to come back and both want to go back to the USA. One lives in Yorkshire, the other Northern Ireland and both are looking to return. The country is HUGE and the political demographics vary wildly. I'd probably rather live in a nice area blue state than here in Northern Ireland, for instance.

Kidcare is a government sponsored health insurance that is only available in the state of Florida and would not be available if OP locates to another state

That's weird because I was not in Florida.

Every state has some provision for maternity care under the Medicaid umbrella, whether it's called Kidcare or some other name. It's called Moms and Babies in the state I live in now.

How much paid maternity leave is there in the state you’re in? And what is the pay? 100% of salary? 50%? Or something else?

It is not personal.

Options seem to be determined by how much money you have.

It is easier if you are poorer in the UK.
USA is a fab country to visit. However I can't forget the levels of poverty I witnessed.

I’m in a different state, and I received 12 weeks paid family leave PFL, 6 weeks half pay, plus a few extra weeks paid for c-section recovery (it might have been a type of disability ins payment add on). It was a lot of paperwork and all very complicated, I remember. I additionally took 5 months unpaid so I was out for less than a year total. I’d only been in the US less than 2 years at the time, so I was glad I qualified for anything to be honest.

It must be a frustrating thread to read. I haven't read all of It, but I do hope the majority of posts are about the culture/system rather than digs at the people themselves.

Btw I am hoping to come and see for myself- in August we're finally (I hope) having a 4 week holiday in California that's been postponed since Covid!

I do think aspects of the US are absolutely fucked. I also think many, many aspects of the UK are fucked, especially now. 😔 It's just that when the US decides to fuck itself up, it's usually in quite a spectacular and eye-catching way.

My cousins are American born (English Mum, American Father), one is pregnant and due her baby imminently. She can have 15 days off following the birth. She is moving to the UK before child is school age.

I want my children to go to school and not be shot at their desks.

I want my daughter to be able to choose if she needs an abortion.

I love that I don't have to worry about paying for their medical care.

I love that I get annual leave that allows us family time.

I wouldn't move to America if you paid me.

I would choose the UK, although not exactly one of the best countries in the world to live in at the moment.
I think most, if not all, points have been mentioned, but in a nutshell it'd be down to poor/lack of gun control; healthcare (and how good it is) determined by your insurance and not just universally available; very, very short maternity leave entitlements (and not always guaranteed) ; lots of additives and chemicals allowed in food that are banned in the UK, some due to being unsafe.

@GeorgiaGirl52 - I do understand what you're saying, and I really loved all the time I spent in the US - all 32 states I have visited had amazing elements.

But all those things you list are positives. I understand that, but your reality of insurance etc and being able to afford out of pocket costs, is not everyone's experience.

To me, the major issues just make the beautiful/elements small by comparison. When you're choosing where to raise children, surely the potential problems of issues carry more weight than the positives?

But I do have personal bias. Of the 32 states I visited, I would probably vote Florida the place I'd least like to live.

I loved Georgia! 😉

re Florida traffic levels, belief that there is less traffic in USA than UK.

you haven't driven around Miami. That's all I need to say.
This statement from someone who has driven thru LA many hundreds of times. South Florida traffic can be hellish!!

US- guns. Disappearing womens right. Insurance based healthcare.

UK- none of the above. Total no brainer.

UK over US.

I’d say Canada, Germany and Norway are better than both (haven’t lived in NZ or Aus but they also look better from what friends over there tell me).

So I am definitely not saying UK is amazing. Just that the US, especially if you don’t live in say, Bay Area on a fantastic tech salary, would be significantly worse.