Archie Battersbee case

[whynotwhatknot]

I was just wondering why we're not allowed to post about this case-the deletion message mentioned it was ongoing so wouldnt be fair to the family

Charlie gards case was on going and there was numerous threads about it

Anyway if this stands maybe we can discuss

Thank you for the explanations of the monitors! So yet more evidence that poor Archie has died.

As much as my heart would want to see his little face and touch his skin forever even on ventilation I hope I'd have the strength to accept his life and the person he was is gone.

Something about trying to wake him with chocolate cake. The reaction on there when the most likely judgement is given..hopefully the parents will step away and get the right support rather then fuel the flames. I know its hard and you don't know how you'd react in that situation but some of the posts are ridiculous.

Goodness, yes. The agony of leaving your child behind, gosh, it makes me well up.

I'm glad I have no idea hat that feels like, but I'm of an age where more than you'd realise people who are close to me have had to do it. You need strength to accept the enormous loss and the burden it leaves you to carry.

Poor Hollie. I can see that suffering the loss of a child is so great it could be easier to immerse in a fantasy.

I feel for the staff too - nursing a dead child, good grief, that would do funny things to you.

The reaction on there when the most likely judgement is given

Just about the only good thing is that it won't last. Some of these people have the attention span of a gnat and their entertainment is going OTT over the latest nonsense they've read online, but once Archie's no longer with us and they've plastered SM with further silliness I give it days before they fade away

And that's when I hope the family will find better people to support them in the days ahead

I’ve seen today they are taking about how someone (a friend? staff member?) bought in some chocolate cake and how Alfie started drooling in response.

This led to suggestions to put the cake near his mouth as it might trigger him to move his tongue.

Are there really people this stupid walking our earth?

My heart breaks for Hollie, but this is just madness. I truly hope that after tomorrow she has some proper support as opposed to the Army who are behaving awfully.

I have a feeling that they won’t allow her the space to grieve and instead will just keep banging on about the hospital lying and wanting to kill Archie and how the whole thing was a conspiracy etc. It’s going to be awful for Hollie and what she needs is professional support and time and space to accept what has happened.

I can’t see the Army allowing that sadly ☹️

I dont think the army will allow that and I don't think she'll allow that unfortunately. Been a few posts from her that have stirred it all up which maybe be her trying to convince herself all is okay....

But hopefully there is support from the right places and not people who have something to try and gain from all this.

yes the post from essex live -actually alot of comments said she shoujld let him go now-it was more like a rant than genuine medical evidence-theyre swapping scans it snot her sons results etc-i feel shes gone down the rabbit hole now

i do hope for archies sake a decision to let him go is made today

Tweet from Charlie Frost.

'At the Royal Courts of Justice where the treatment of 12yo Archie Battersbee is being decided upon by a High Court Judge. It appears Archie’s family now accept he won’t wake up. They have written to judge to say this is now about the timing & manner of Archie’s death'

Which from the first court document seemed always the case that they knew there was no coming back..

This has always confused me - in the facebook group his mum & family have always maintained they think he could recover if given more time, and that was the basis of all the appeals.

I wonder if they will state publicly they agree with this.

I have no medical knowledge but I do know of two or three cases in my family where medical professionals made the wrong call in serious situations with serious consequences. They're not infallible and since thankfully we don't have the same litigation culture as the US, we need a system like this to allow parents to make sure no stone has been left unturned. I understand why the mum is doing this and I think it's unfair to call her deluded. These appeals never seem to work but if we didn't have the system, I think more lives would unnecessarily be lost.

shes deluded because shes saying theyve swapped his medical scans for another child to lie to them not because of anything else

i dont know about the court but shes still on social media saying he will wake up and the doctors are wrong

how much time do they want honestly-its been 3 months to stretch ito9ut longer is for their benefit only not archies

shes saying theyve swapped his medical scans for another child to lie to them ...

I thought that one had already been addressed - as in the images they saw were selected bits and someone's now sat down with them and shown the full images with his name at the top?

It's crazy he is still being kept alive artificially.

I have never seen a person being kept alive artificially though I'd imagine that they would deteriorate on the outside too.

I wonder how the nurses are responding to the parents questions, if they ask how he is today? By giving stats etc is it giving hope to his mother.

She's still claiming (or was in an article a couple of days ago) that they had the wrong number of teeth.

I think it would very very difficult to discern number of teeth in an MRI, in the planes that they'd be using to explain his brain injuries.

^^

She's still claiming (or was in an article a couple of days ago) that they had the wrong number of teeth

Ah yes I saw that, but wasn't sure of the timescale of when she actually said it

Sad though it may be that they're needed, this is why it's just as well the court system exists - because someone's got to be able to view these things objectively, and while their despair's completely understandable it's clearly not going to be the parents

I think in the Charlie Gard case the courts allowed Charlie to be moved to a Hospice ,so the life support could be switched off and the family had some privacy, maybe yhsy is what they mean about the timing and manner of death?

I’ll defer to the medics on the thread, but I don’t think Archie is well enough to move to a hospice. I don’t think he would survive the transfer.

I think the family want him to be kept “alive” until his body dies notwithstanding the treatment, rather than have the treatment withdrawn. I believe the manner of death for Archie if he were to be ventilated until his body gives up would be a cardiac arrest when his brain is no longer capable of causing his heart to beat?

The thing is he's currently receiving active treatment to maintain his BP and control his DI. Stop either of those treatments and he would eventually go into cardiac arrest when either his potassium dropped too low or his BP did. But that would be uncontrolled, and it would be difficult for mum to be with him on the bed and hold him because of all the devices in the way and the unpredictability of when it would happen.

Ah fair enough but surely waiting until he has a cardiac arrest would be far more traumatic for the family, is it more game playing to buy extra time?

I would like to hear a medical ethicists take on these sorts of cases .

Everyone has a right to life, but do we also have a right to death? How does this child's situation balance with the UN's agreement that the deceased deserve dignity and privacy?

What is the impact on the staff of nursing and medicating a dead child? Of seeing a family stuck in limbo? While they are being abused by the growing army of people who are hard of understanding?

What responsibility does the ward have to the children who are in need of a bed, the live but very unwell children? Are they being shipped to far away ICUs?

I'm confused why a hopeless situation has been allowed to continue. It has been months, and in theory it could be many more. I cannot see that it benefits anyone, except, perhaps the people with ideological viewpoints who are using this family's tragedy as a political tool.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I agree with you. The fact that this is happening means something is not right within the system.

The problem is (i think. I know nothing!) there has to be a balance between safeguards for families against malpractice and the complete authority of medical staff.

Something's out of kilter. It must be when medical staff are having to 'treat' a dead body for months. I'm glad it's not my job to work this stuff out though.

She seemed to think the pituitary gland controlled salivation and that it is in the brain, therefore this shows the brain isn't dead. Except of course that salivation is controlled by the parotid gland which has even less to do with the brain than the pituitary.

But the odd thing is that none of that is consistent with her apparently instructing her lawyers that she accepts he isn't going to recover. It's really difficult to work out what is going on.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria
How does this child's situation balance with the UN's agreement that the deceased deserve dignity and privacy?

I think this is what people find so viscerally awful about the case, and how much worse it must be for the staff. I'm just a sociologist, not a (medical) doctor, but every culture has social norms and customs about the respectful treatment of human remains. It violates something instinctive for us to mistreat a body like this, worse still a child's body, which is why it has historically been used as terrible, shameful insult.