To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

[portugalq]

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

I'll be relieved when transphobia is consigned to the history books.

Out of actual curiosity, if a person had taken puberty blockers early enough not to go through male puberty, would you be comfortable with that person swimming in the women's races?

I think you are fudging the issue here. This is also like bringing DSD people into the argument. It's transwomen we are talking about, and mostly it seems transwomen weren't elite athletes as the biological males they were, so they think they will have a go as women.

Personally I would like to see puberty blockers banned, but that's a different argument for another thread.

Nancydrawn - not really. But my understanding is that a pre-pubescent body isn't competitive against a woman's post-puberty body - so it sadly becomes a child safe-guarding question rather a womens sports fairness question. Puberty blockers are not a neutral act.

Cate Campbell is an all round legend.

Sorry, I think I was unclear.

I was actually asking whether you'd be okay with person born a male who took puberty blockers and thus never went through male puberty racing against women as an adult. As in, whether it was the chromosome (born with XY) or a hormone (went through testosterone--based puberty) that was the issue at hand.

It was a genuine question.

That's clear--thanks!

What's transphobic on this thread?

Mumsnet would be a very weird place if it actually had different parts of the forum for homophobia or racism or transphobia

i think its great that they will be creating an ‘open’ section

We know some DSDs affect females meaning they can have higher levels than the female average of testerone so can share the same male physical advantages which needs to be addressed also so they do limit the T levels in females.

Even the 1989s East German elite female swimmers who were all being doped with testosterone, never came close to male times. Male puberty is more complex than just testosterone levels and no tinkering with T levels can mitigate the differences between male and female athletes.

This is massive progress for sports fairness.
unfortunately i fear the trans community now have an excuse to push puberty blocking drugs on children well before they are ready, or certain its what they want. Especially if other sports follow suit it will be a case that the are up against a hard time limit. the trans activists will say children need to transition before age 12 or they will not be able to compete in the category of their chosen gender.
Its all a really hideous mess

Personally I think this is the wrong decision. They said anyone who went through male puberty can’t compete as a woman. But if a male transitioned before the age of 12 they can compete. We shouldn’t be encouraging young athletes to transition at that age. There should be a blanket ban on people born male competing as females, and recognition that 12 is too young for transition to be permitted so it’s simply not possible for someone to transition before puberty.

Yelling transphobia to cow women is not going to work anymore. I can see the tide slowly changing and Lia Thomas is responsible! I was furious when I saw him- and yes, he's a him- grandiosely announcing his plans for Olympic trials. Get back in the bin of sub- par males.

Why is this discussion transphobic? What's the hate crime?

Nothing.
Unless actual biological women having opinions that don't fit the agenda is transphonic.....oh wait 😂

Mic drop

Peronsim

Are just another one of those ploppers who's echo chamber is so delicate you cannot cope with respectful discussions?

Why don't you ask MNHQ for a hide the thread button so you can ya know hide any threads you don't like.... .oh hang on a moment they already have one!!

Sparing a thought for Reka Gyorgy today, the woman who missed out on her rightfully earned place in the NCAA final because of Lia Thomas. This must be bittersweet for her.

No, because why should womens sport is seen as the be kind competition?

Out of actual curiosity, if a person male had taken puberty blockers early enough not to go through male puberty, would you be comfortable with that person male swimming in the women's races?

I note how you had to edit out sex for the male/man but used women.

Was that an active choice to "desex" the male child?

Out of actual curiosity, if a person male had taken puberty blockers early enough chosen not to go through male puberty, would you be comfortable with that person male swimming in the women's races?

It is either a mixed sex or single sex race.

@tttigress from the article:

Fina will also aim to establish an 'open' category at competitions for swimmers whose gender identity is different than their birth sex

I think they will probably have done so much damage to their body with the puberty blockers that elite sport is out of the question anyway.

This.

But this decision is still a good start.

I reckon that within the next decade most European countries will have banned puberty blockers for this purpose.

Masked men screaming abuse at unmasked legally demonstrating women, chalking threats on the pavements that “first it was Colston next it will be terfs” . The odd threat of rape, written and verbal invitations to suck dicks, that sort of stuff. The usual, because they are men and are apparently allowed to express their anger , make threats of physical violence and disguise their identities without being arrested.

Thank goodness they weren’t being really aggressive and doing violent acts like putting stickers on lampposts saying transwomen are men or tying suffragette ribbons on fences like those wicked frightening women a few months ago who got themselves arrested for their abusive and terrifying actions.

Yes, I have my suspicions this is intended as a sop. Obviously there's a discussion to be had about whether a red line would've been better but I doubt they actually envisage someone in that position ever getting near elite sports competition.

Fina will also aim to establish an 'open' category at competitions for swimmers whose gender identity is different than their birth sex

I am genuinely curious about this. Will the Lia Thomas's of the world want to swim in a trans category? Swimming with other transwomen would surely take the advantage that they have over women away? If they are happy with this, then yes, we can agree, it's just about being allowed to compete in sport.