To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

[portugalq]

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

Hmm. Where did I say that Lia Thomas has “nothing in common” with the female swimmers?

Well what do you think Lia has in common with them?

The only thing you've mentioned is an "identity", and you've admitted that Lia's identity has nothing to do with the female swimmers because it is personal to Lia and has no shared features with any identity that they might feel they have.

Oh, I definitely believe you're huge, hot and bothered. I think we all believe that.

Strange how you’re so keen to have Thomas who is attracted to women (although you have no idea what a woman is of course) in a female changing room with their dick out. Sarah Everard’s killer liked showing his dick to women. Was that ok? Are flashers ok?

Saying you’re a woman means you can do what you like. Of course no one will take advantage of that will they?

Absolutely:)

Hear hear

This explains it better than I could.

it's unevidenced nonsense though, don't you see that?

There is no definition of how one arrives at ones gender apart from 'what I feel inside', so why on earth can't that be applied to race or species?

Yes, that is what I read.

She didn’t expose her erect penis. She got changed (as you do in changing rooms) and sometimes the genitalia is exposed.

I don’t understand how I am being disingenuous. I received the impression from Mumsnet last night (perhaps incorrectly!) that Lia exposed her erect penis to female teammates. That certainly didn’t sound acceptable. But I read the link and it seems that never happened?

It's just absolute rubbish, isn't it?

I don't know how anyone can say, with a straight face, that someone's gender identity is about how they feel inside and is unique and personal to them, and at the same time argue that this supposed gender identity justifies them being treated as a member of one group rather than another, and entitled to use the same toilets and changing rooms and compete in the same sports.

Either it is something that classifies you in relation to other people on the basis of shared characteristics, or it is unique and personal to you and has nothing to do with anyone else. It can't be both. Pick one.

@StolenCookie, is there a reason why you are focusing on whether Lia's penis was or was not erect and refusing to answer any of the other questions? Such as what Lia has in common with the female swimmers?

I just wanted to say, although I think the acronym 'TERF' is ridiculous -I'm not excluding anybody from anything that they didn't already have access to - but now that battle lines have been drawn, I'm happy to be called a TERF. Same with transphobic - dumb, I don't have any phobias, apart from cockcroaches, ugh, but again, essentially, I'm transphobic by today's definitions - I don't want males in female sport, rape shelters, prisons or bathrooms. There we have it. All the TERF! TRANSPHOBIC! screeching - like it's the worst insult in the entire world. Well it really isn't. I'm fine with it.

Well not being a Terf seems to require denying the reality of biological fact, so I'm happy to be called it. At least I'm not scientifically illiterate.

Obsess? Someone up thread referred to ‘us TERFs’. I’m just curious about you saying “I’d rather be a TERF than parrot this nonsense”. It sounded like you wouldn’t identify as TERF ordinarily and that just interested me! No need to clarify if you would prefer not to though!

The issue of trans women in vulnerable women’s spaces is a really tricky one. I honestly don’t have an answer to it! I think vulnerable women need to be protected from potentially being retraumatised, and I don’t know what solution would advocate for the needs of these women as well as respecting the gender identity of trans women.

In other words, the knob was out and it was, er, clear that Thomas is still attracted to women. If I thought you were actually a pregnant woman, and didn't know what this means, this would be the point I would make a mental note never ever to borrow your turkey baster.

You may think that this level of intellectual dishonesty and fake ignorance looks credible from from outside. Frankly, your thought process is so garbled that it's hard to tell. And it's clear that this has long ceased to be about trans people and is now only about you trying to prove you haven't been "beaten" on the Internet.

But you have been, mate. Roundly and embarrassingly so. The more you call to override consent, to discredit victims, to respect sexual harassment, to erase women, to claim you can't fucking read, the more any idiot can see the sinister, yet palpably thick-headed, nature of this entire ideology.

I just think TERF is inaccurate, because feminism includes all female people, including the ones who identify as trans men or non-binary, who, try as they might, cannot opt out of sex based oppression. I prefer to think of myself as a MERF. Or perhaps a MEF, because I don't think there is anything radical about believing that feminism is for female people and not male people.

I couldn't give a rat's ass about being called transphobic either. The word has lost all meaning now.

If believing that female people should be allowed to have a word for themselves which does not include male people, and that they should be allowed to have their own single sex spaces and sports, and that "because the female swimmers don't want Lia in there" is a good enough reason for Lia not using the women's locker rooms, makes me "transphobic", it's not an insult, is it? I'd rather be transphobic than a reality-denying misogynist.

Why do we need to respect someone's gender identity any more than we need to respect their star sign or their favourite colour?

What I really don't get is why we should have to respect someone's gender identity in a sex specific spaces.

The issue of trans women in vulnerable women’s spaces is a really tricky one. I honestly don’t have an answer to it!

"How do we stop vulnerable women in women's spaces from being exposed to males? How do we prioritise their safety over a male person's desire for external validation? Oh, it's so tricky! Maybe a clever person can come up with something!"

I mean, it's really not a tricky issue at all, is it?

Either you believe women should be able to use women's spaces safe in the knowledge that there won't be any male people present when they are trying to have a shower or get changed or describe being raped or win a sporting competition, or you believe that the feelings of people like Lia Thomas should take priority.

I know what I believe.

Video of yesterday's rally in Washington DC celebrating Title IX in the USAand discussing it's possible demise with the inclusion of male athletes into the female category. Female athletes , including many elite athletes, discuss the problems they face when having to compete against male bodied athletes. The noise in the background is TRAs trying to silence women.

Is Rachel Dolezal black? If not, why the double standards?

If a stranger told you that they were your father, would you invite them to Christmas dinner?

Rather than just lash out here and say the comparison is ridiculous, why not try to actually work out why, and see if you are able to write it down? Why can a man become a woman by fiat but an young woman from Morocco not become your father in the same way?

Do you think you’re able to work out why you accept one but not the other?

How is this for a solution, huge hot and bothered intersectional feminist?

We have Open spaces where both sexes can mingle freely. You can go and change there and congratulate yourself for your progressiveness with every knob exposed before you.

Then we have dedicated male and female spaces for male and female born people. Then the hijab-wearing Muslim woman, the Orthodox Jewess, the traumatised survivor, the terfs and the women who just plain don't consent to knobs out can have their space too. And one for male people because they also deserve the same respect for their consent.

In fact, trans people then get TWO options, more than those of us who can't tolerate mixed sex spaces would have.

What's wrong with that?

She didn’t expose her erect penis. She got changed (as you do in changing rooms) and sometimes the genitalia is exposed.

How do you think it might be obvious how someone with an exposed penis is attracted to women...? It's not that tricky to work out unless you are an extremely naïve virgin.

I think we should stop engaging with the discussion about whether Lia's penis was erect or not.

It doesn't matter.

The female swimmers not wanting Lia's penis in their locker rooms is a good enough reason for Lia to be excluded.

And what @ReneBumsWombats said.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if Thomas' exposed knob was rock hard, flaccid, half mast or wearing a Groucho Marx mask. It's a knob, it doesn’t belong in a women's changing room and women were made to undress before it against their will or lose their chance to compete.

Trying to shift the issue to erections rather than penises is annoying. A distraction technique because there is no good justification for a man to be getting changed in the women’s changing rooms.