To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

[portugalq]

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

theconversation.com/no-you-cant-identify-as-transracial-but-you-can-affirm-your-gender-163729

This explains it better than I could.

Morning, Cookies. Everyone knows you're still enraged about being proven wrong, definitively, over and over again yesterday. And you're still banging on because it's now a battle for your ego and nothing to do with trans people. But if you want to keep embarrassing yourself, far be it from us to stop you living your authentic self.

Googling "lia thomas changing room" brings up a zillion hits for the story that you didn't know about. The original interview was with the Daily Mail but the top hits are all American, NYP first. Keep looking at the hits and you'll see how women were also told to "get over" having Thomas' knob out in front of them.

I'm sure you're going to claim this is made up, or say that direct quotes cease to exist if the Daily Mail reports them, but that's to be expected from someone who thinks they can make up their own facts.

We aren't actually trying to get you to admit we're right. You obviously know we are, but your ego will never allow it. You're just posting now to show we haven't "beaten" you, because that's the level you engage on. This is now for the lurkers who really are looking for evidence and don't mind thinking.

Happy Friday and don't trip over any errant knobs.

TRAs don’t understand basic philosophy or epistemology.

They actually do. That's how they know they're wrong. That's why they get so angry and abusive.

I can't believe a pregnant woman thinks there is no difference between her and a transwoman. Everyday about 800 women die from pregnancy or childbirth, but hey, maybe they can just identify out of that.

"Gender is our internal sense of self, whether that be man, woman, neither or both."

But this is fucking word salad.

It cannot simultaneously be about your internal sense of self, and also be about being a man or a woman, which are both words for groups of people.

Lia Thomas's internal sense of self has got absolutely nothing to do with the female swimmers. You admitted that yourself.

Stella Creasy, who spent months whingeing about how MPs don't get maternity leave and not being allowed to breastfeed her baby in the House of Commons, claiming that these are barriers to women in politics, thinks a trans woman is an adult human female.

Really, Stella?

Not only do we not need a word for "humans of the childbearing sex", but we don't even need a word for "the childbearing sex" at all?

Well that will make the barriers to humans of the childbearing sex in politics just magically disappear, won't it?

No, it asserts, it doesn’t explain.

Why can you change into a woman by fiat but not into a different race?

How can sex be a question of feeling over biology, but age, race, height or age not be?

That article posits the religious view that humans have an innate sexed soul from which an innate gender identity flows. That is unevidenced and, a-priori, a ludicrous assertion.

I see. So the only thing that actually happened is some women felt uncomfortable with Lia’s presence in the changing room.

Lia didn’t deliberately expose an erect penis to her female teammates?

I think it’s valid for people to feel however they feel. If they are uncomfortable, they are uncomfortable.

But do I believe that Lia Thomas, without any history of inappropriate behaviour, belongs in a female changing room? Yes I do.

That article posits the religious view that humans have an innate sexed soul from which an innate gender identity flows. That is unevidenced and, a-priori, a ludicrous assertion.

And even if it were true, it still wouldn't make any difference to the realities and lived experiences of immutable, physically sexed bodies.

No, but it would be a quite stunning discovery in biology.

Why?

You've already admitted that Lia has nothing in common with the female swimmers.

Lia's internal sense of self has nothing to do with them.

Which means the sole justification for Lia being in there is "because it's what Lia wants".

Why does what Lia wants matter more than what the female swimmers want?

Is it because Lia has a penis?

I love Eddie Izzard and have no problem with him wearing a dress and makeup, but man, it grated when he talked about switching from boy mode to girl mode and back again, just as Sarah Everard's killer was being tried. Women don't have the fun experience of switching "modes". Nor are they built like Eddie Izzard.

Instead, we get to be murdered and assaulted by men. But hey, who can even define a woman? It's a feeling in my toe as @StolenCookie thinks. And we are all just human, aren't we?

"Show me the link! Well, I don't believe the link!"

I knew you'd soon be promoting sexual harassment, discrediting victims and effectively calling for barring of religious, traumatised or otherwise non-consenting women from their services. It's the only conclusion you can get from TWAW. That and all the homophobia as well.

I'm sure your mother is very proud. Presumably you don't know which of your parents is her.

So a dick in the ladies'? Oh do fuck off. Luckily most disagree with you and your lack of regard for actual women.

The really stupid thing about this is that there is no biological basis for race. None at all. It’s entirely a social invention. There are no physiological or genetic characteristics that you can use to neatly divide up humans into races (like some kind of sub-species - which is why that kind of thinking is so bloody offensive).

Sex on the other hand… yep. There’s a genuine biological difference. One that’s easy to recognise genetically and physiologically. The existence of small numbers of people with DSDs does not change that.

Gender is a bullshit term that does more harm than good. Prudishness about the word ‘sex’ has created all sorts of confusion around gender. It’s literally just a pile of stupid social ideas and norms about what men and women should do. There is no essentially gendered anything at all.

However, it’s been a fantastic tool throughout the ages for social control purposes (which is why religions have been so keen on ideas of gendered souls traditionally). It’s an excellent ‘know your place’ ideology.

I don’t, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to reinforce and perpetuate the reification of this crap. Nor why anyone would think moved to increase the ideological power of gender were radical or progressive.

But I read the link. It doesn’t say Lia Thomas exposed an erect penis to her teammates? Have I missed this?

But I read the link. It doesn’t say Lia Thomas exposed an erect penis to her teammates? Have I missed this?

It doesn't matter whether Lia's penis was erect or not.

What matters is that the female swimmers don't want Lia's penis in their locker rooms.

You have a real obsession with Lia Thomas and oddly ignore all other wider questions about safe spaces for women: prisons, refuges, crisis services, schemes for employment....
Yes, the thread is about Lia, but given your views on TW are you prepared to comment on wider issues?

Hmm. Where did I say that Lia Thomas has “nothing in common” with the female swimmers?

Or their showers.

It really isn’t ridiculous for women to not want to shower and change with a biological men. Whatever those biological men think about themselves.

It’s quite strange how a supposedly pregnant female has popped up using only TRA arguments and assertions, and seems to care only about trans males, not about women at all.

Interesting. TERF isn’t how you would identify ordinarily?

I wish I was ‘supposedly pregnant’! I’m huge, hot and bothered! I wish it were an illusion 😂

Obfuscation, deviation, disingenuousness, all designed to derail and waste time.

"Thomas, 22, who spent the previous three years swimming with the men’s team before she began transitioning to a woman, has created an uneasy environment in the locker room, as she still retains her biologically male genitalia — which are sometimes exposed — and is attracted to women, one teammate told the Daily Mail in an interview.

“It’s definitely awkward because Lia still has male body parts and is still attracted to women,” the swimmer said.
“Multiple swimmers have raised it, multiple different times,” she said. “But we were basically told that we could not ostracize Lia by not having her in the locker room and that there’s nothing we can do about it, that we basically have to roll over and accept it, or we cannot use our own locker room.”She added, “It’s really upsetting because Lia doesn’t seem to care how it makes anyone else feel. The 35 of us are just supposed to accept being uncomfortable in our own space and locker room for, like, the feelings of one."Is this what you're reduced to now? Pretending you can't read?

Still waiting for what you think about TW being allowed in women's prisons, rape shelters and crisis services. I think I am going to be waiting a long time while you obsess about the term TERF.