To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

[portugalq]

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

I don’t understand how you can accept that penises in single-sex places where people might be getting undressed might not be welcomed by many women (which you do seem to accept)…

…and then also maintain that ‘transwomen are women’, @StolenCookie?

👏👏👏👏👏👏

Unfortunately the German FA has just thrown every female footballer under the bus by allowing any male footballer who identifies either as a woman or non binary to play in whichever category they like. Wonder what effect this will have on the number of women able to earn a living pkaying football?

There's never any answer to this, but I'll have another go.

Why is it only sex where biology can be trumped by what I feel in my head.

Why can't I 'identify' as black, blind, a cat on the grounds that I was born in the 'wrong body'?

Because a small number of people have a variation of male or female sexual development and sometimes people lose primary or secondary sexual characteristics to cancer.

Exploiting DSDs and cancer patients with fallacious bullshit. That's what they've got. A woman post hysterectomy isn't really a woman. It really is that offensive and ignorant.

And conflation of sex and gender stereotypes, so a woman is someone who likes Barbie and baking. Obviously.

They should honestly be ashamed.

It doesn't stand up though because technically everyone is mixed race but it's still not acceptable to identify as a race if you're not. Race has a LOT more flexibility but that's still not ok. So there's no technicality about biological sex that makes it more ok or understandable.

Yes, your lack of understanding is very obvious.

I am referring here to your complaint about the accurate use of a term for penis, rather than laddy (although the idea that a male who is using their gender identity as a mechanism to mistreat women deserves to be referred to as anything other than a male is hardly an uncontroversial one). Your idea that this is aimed at all trans people is simply an invention. It's being aimed at one trans person who was sexually harassing women. Your comparison to that for the use of the n word that's been thrown at so many people for doing nothing more than existing is revolting. You are saying that accurately referring to a male engaging in very male misbehaviour is akin to racial slurs used against people for simply being alive and there, and that's simply inexcusable. You are all the way in the wrong here.

TLDR: you're trivialising racism and throwing black people under the bus.

Just catching up on this thread.

It's amazing how some people, when backed into a corner and with no arguments left, will just fall back on "trans women are women", as if that settles it.

I have yet to come across anyone who believes trans women are women who can actually coherently explain what a woman is, or anyone who can meaningfully define the word woman and believes that a trans woman is one.

Good morning Mumsnet!

I awoke refreshed and renewed in my conviction that trans women are women. I knew it would be a good day and I hope you’re all well rested too after the fiasco last night 😄

I see that someone referred to ‘us TERFs’ up thread. Would I be accurate in describing yesterday as… a TERFnado? A TERFtastrophe perhaps!

Has a rumour started that I am a man? You rascals!

What is a woman? I don’t think there’s a clear answer to that question. But I believe it’s an identity you feel (rather than dictated by sex organs) and I would recognise anyone as a woman if that’s how they chose to identify.

Would I welcome a trans woman in a female space? Yes I would! The sight of a penis may be triggering for some women, which is a genuine problem, but that doesn’t negate the fact that trans women are women because the presence of a penis doesn’t mean you are not a woman.

As an aside: can anyone link me to a credible news source about Lia Thomas reportedly assaulting/harassing women in the changing room? I googled last night but couldn’t find anything.

But I believe it’s an identity you feel (rather than dictated by sex organs)

So why does that only apply to being a woman?

why wouldn't being black, blind or a cat be an 'identity you feel' rather than 'being dictated by biological reality'?

What is a woman? I don’t think there’s a clear answer to that question

I can't understand why people are so clear they are one then, if it's indefinable.

because the presence of a penis doesn’t mean you are not a woman.

Its like the twilight zone. More biology classes sorely needed I think.

What is a woman? I don’t think there’s a clear answer to that question.

Well I bl**dy well think there is a clear answer, and I only did O level biology.

Well, at least the mask has been dropped this morning.

What is a woman? I don’t think there’s a clear answer to that question. But I believe it’s an identity you feel (rather than dictated by sex organs) and I would recognise anyone as a woman if that’s how they chose to identify.

I'm sorry @StolenCookie, but that isn't a good enough answer.

"Women" is a word for a group of people making up about half the human population. In order for that word to have any meaning or use, the people in that group need to have something in common.

What do women and trans women have in common, which makes them the same as each other and different to men, and justifies them using the same toilets and changing rooms, being housed in the same prisons and competing in the same sporting categories?

If you think it is that they share the same identity, you need to be able to explain what the features of that identity are.

Because I for one do not have a clue what trans women are identifying with.

If you ask me how I know I am a woman, I will tell you that it is because I am biologically female. I have a vagina, ovaries, a uterus and breasts. I have two X chromosomes. I menstruate. I have grown a human inside my body. I have not ever had a penis or produced sperm.

I do not know what trans women are identifying with, but it clearly isn't that.

And I am not identifying with anything other than that.

I certainly do not identify with liking the colour pink, playing with Barbies, shopping for pleasure, not being able to open jam jars, wearing dresses and makeup, not being able to parallel park, or any other sexist stereotypes associated with being a woman.

Once you remove female biology from the equation, all you've got left is sexist stereotypes.

Why do features of an identity have to be shared? We’re not biologically classifying people. We’re talking about an identity. A conscious thing you feel.

Also - please someone link me to a credible article about Lia Thomas assaulting women in the changing room. I do genuinely want to learn more about this if it actually happened.

So we're back to religious mantras. 🙄

Woman has a very clear definition in the equality act. I suggest you look it up.

We’re not biologically classifying people.

Yes we are. It's a sex classification.

We’re talking about an identity. A conscious thing you feel.

Ok, so can I identify as another race? Another species? If not why not?

Jon Pike(OU) is being interviewed at 10 am BBC Sussex about the unfairness of allowing male sexed athletes to compete against female athletes.
www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1124810/navratilova-criticises-ioc-transgender

An article in which Martina Navratilova criticises the IOC for passing the buck.

‘I don’t know what a woman is but trans women are definitely what I’m not sure about.’ Hilarious!!

Just emperors new clothes nonsense . But luckily, just like in that story, because of people like Thomas and Bridges, more and more people are now pointing and laughing at the absolutely bonkers idea that a man can just say he’s a woman and everyone will go along with that despite the harm caused to women and girls.

You are using the Lia Thomas incident to obscure the fact that you think men should be able to feel their way into women's prisons, refuges, and services. As far as I know Lia did not assault anyone, but women in the swim team - some as young as 17- expressed their discomfort at having to see his tackle. They were told to shut up.

Women do not need to prove assault by a man in a changing room. It's enough to say we need safe spaces.

I consciously feel I am a cat and therefore don't need to pay taxes. Is that ok then?

Is Rachel Dolezal black?

Do you understand that definitions cannot be circular?

Is it fair to say that like everyone who pops up here parroting trans-activist rhetoric that you aren’t really aware of the structure of a valid argument? It’s like not a single one of you has a decent degree that involves developing an understanding of how an argument is formed.

I don’t know what a woman is but trans women are definitely what I’m not sure about.

I don't get why people aren't more embarrassed by this nonsense. No critical thinking whatsoever.

"The presence of a penis does not mean you are not a woman."

I mean I would rather be a TERF than parrot this nonsense.

The utter stupidity of this question.

Why do the features of an identity have to be shared?

Because if there are no shared features, this alleged "identity" has got absolutely nothing to do with being a woman, which is a word for a group of people making up roughly half the human population.

Lia Thomas's alleged "identity" is Lia's sole justification for why Lia, who has significant and obvious physical advantages over the female swimmers, should be allowed to compete with them rather than with the male swimmers. It is the reason why Lia believes that Lia and Lia's penis belong in the women's locker rooms and not the men's.

So yes, damn right, Lia - and everyone else who insists that trans women are women if that is how they "identify" - need to be able to explain what they are identifying with and that the fuck they think it has to do with being a woman.

Otherwise, if "woman" and "man" are both identities, but with no features or characteristics shared by people who have those identities, we do not need these words at all, because there is no actual difference between a woman and a man. If these are identities which are not shared but are unique to the individual, we can dispense with the words "woman" and "man" and simply refer to everyone as humans. No more single sex sports, changing rooms, prisons or toilets. Everyone in together.

Good luck explaining to your children how babies are made, or who is at risk of FGM, or who might need an abortion, or who might be at risk of getting testicular cancer though.

I think that trans activists tend to be drawn from the opposite end of the gene pool to the intellectual elite.

Argument by assertion, circular definitions, special pleading and temper tantrums seem to be all that they have.

The very idea that a man can feel “like” a woman is incoherent. No-one knows what it feels like to be a woman, as opposed to feeling like a man.

Each of us only knows how it feels to be “me.” We have no idea which parts of that gestalt state we share with another woman, with all women, with another man or with all men.

TRAs don’t understand basic philosophy or epistemology.