To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

[portugalq]

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

And Rachel Dolezal?

You seem, by the way, to not understand the difference between suffering from gender dysphoria, and having been “born in the wrong body.”

We are our bodies. There is nothing else. We cannot be born in the wrong one, it’s a no more coherent assertion than saying you were born to the wrong parents, or in the wrong year.

But I believe that some people feel they are born in the wrong biological body.

That may be the case, and I suspect that those people are the ones who undergo surgery and probably keep a fairly low profile.

I don't think that this is the case with the Lia Thomas's of the world. They competed as men, weren't good enough at the elite level, and thought that they would have a crack at the women's races. Because of this silly gender nonsense.

Once the sporting bodies do wake up, I do think that we will see quite a lot fewer transwomen. We will also see a lot of adults trying to rewrite their personal histories to pretend that they didn't say that TW were W.

Posters are fed up because you aren't able to defend any of your perhaps well meaning posts. I used to say TWAW are women too, before I realised what it meant. It means giving up and compromising on safe spaces, schemes for women, sports for women, health care for women.... it's not just sharing lipstick reccos with your trans friend

Your foot stamping about "belief" doesn't alter hard, objective, observable biological fact and it's actually incredibly arrogant to think otherwise.

And you certainly don't have the right to impose this ridiculous belief on other women who do not consent to knobs in their changing rooms.

I just disagree with that viewpoint? That’s it, honestly. I never expected this level of intensity about this topic on Mumsnet!

Of course not, because you don't give a shit about women and we do. It's not a good thing that knobs in women's spaces don't make you angry.

In what sense? What does that statement mean?

Do you believe that a 40kg woman suffering from anorexia is obese? If not, why the double standards?

Is Rachel Dolezal black?

If you believe what you are writing, that we believe it when someone makes a claim that appears completely absurd, then surely you must answer yes in these analogous cases.

Sex is as real as BMI and albedo.

I don't think you even know who Maya Forstater is tbh. Or Allison Bailey. That's why us TERFS are angry. You are just burbling on about your beliefs, but unable to say whether, for instance, you want TW to be in women's prisons.

And you certainly don't have the right to impose this ridiculous belief on other women who do not consent to knobs in their changing rooms.

Exactly. You cannot give consent on behalf of other women.

Of course she doesn't.

She doesn't know that Stonewall now denounces lesbians as "sexual racists" who should examine their prejudices either. She hasn't heard of the cotton ceiling and she doesn't know that Stonewall employs the person who coined the term. She doesn't know what a woman is. She doesn't know why knobs in women's spaces make people angry.

I can’t help that this seems to make all of you incredibly angry!

where are you getting angry from

where on earth are you getting ‘all of you’ and ‘incredibly’ from

there might be the odd angry poster on here…but incredibly and all of us?

I really can’t believe that she is a pregnant, feminist woman.

I only read about all this on MN. Until recently, I too was all about being inclusive and kind. Then I saw Martina Navratilova ( a true idol of mine) being roundly abused for being a TERF. Then I thought: hang on, Martina? The woman who had a trans coach and was a lesbian icon? There's something very wrong here.

What does the word woman mean @StolenCookie? If it's something anyone can be, what is it?

I’m not angry. Amused yes, angry no. Not in the slightest. I think it’s funny when a faux innocent pops up and tone polices us. The arse kicking is usually epic and tonight did not disappoint.

the timing of how long knobs are waved about in your changing room before you're allowed to be uncomfortable

There’s probably a mathematical equation that helps you solve this.

With introduction of variables - any sighting at all of a knob is too much for the young, very religious or those who have been sexually abused in the past.

Then additional variables for length of time it was exposed for and whether it was erect/semi erect as with the penis-owner at the Wii Spa.

Any sighting of a knob in a women’s (or girls’) changing room should also be automatically be considered too much knob if that changing room is for athletes. If you have a knob you have a male body and shouldn’t be competing against females.

Of course not, because you don't give a shit about women and we do

And our daughters. Who, quite simply, wouldn’t get changed or go to the toilet if there were knobs in there.

How bizarre, after the talk about making a coherent argument he dodged every pertinent question and then disappeared

Definitely a he who gets off on thinking he made us angry.

I’m a cat.

I was inclined to believe it was a woman at first because it started off very "be kind", which is how women usually couch it. The "you love me really, doncha" stuff with the winky emoji did set my antenna waving a bit though. Plus the unending reverence for respect of the knob.

I do think the opinions, such as they were, were genuine though. The tone changed so much as he got steadily destroyed and there was so much obvious embarrassment at the end.

@StolenCookie So a fully functioning penis is OK on an inmate in a women's prison so long as the person it is attached thinks they are woman. Even if they have used said penis to commit rape? Even if their female cell mate has been the victim of sexual violence and doesn't want to share a cell with a penis? How can we tell a be-penised rapist who really feels like a woman from one who merely says they feel like a woman? Because if they say they are woman we must believe them and treat them as women even if they have committed the most unwomanly crime?

Wow surely that is just a troll? So offensive and no thought to the reality of prisons, sports and schools. Unbelievable!

Thing is, that's so common now that even if it was a troll, it could easily have been real.

well, it's been a long night. And yet, still no meaningful definition as why trans women are women. Going around making tautologous statements such as women are women would make people think you were a bit simple, so clearly the contentious bit is the term trans. to transition is to move from one state to another. Unfortunately, no one has ever yet in all recorded history changed sex so this transition is, and can only be, cultural or societal in nature. In other words, play acting. When people say, in all apparent seriousness, that they regard trans women as women I think they either dont know what they are saying or they are just fucking bonkers.