To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

[portugalq]

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

What do you understand the word “woman” to mean?

Is Rachel Dolezal black? If not, why the double-standards?

I’m not embarrassed?

Bewildered for the most part!

But you are OK with knobs out in women's changing rooms otherwise?

What about the women who don't consent to it, ardent intersectional feminist?

To be honest that’s a good question. What is a woman? I’m not really sure how to answer that. I feel like I am a woman and that I’ve been born in the correct body, but I also accept that others feel they’ve been born in the wrong body and identify as woman despite being born male sex. I don’t find anything hateful or anti-woman about that personally and not sure why other people do..

at what are you bewildered @StolenCookie ? At trying to define woman to include TW but exclude TM and men? At trying to reconcile feminism and claiming TWAW? At trying to find a way to make this less embarrassing?

Well obviously you're bewildered. Confusion and self-contradiction are the bedrock of all your posts.

The embarrassment is pretty clear too though. The lame jokes and emojis aren't fooling anyone.

I got called a bigot on twitter for saying the same thing. I am sick of all this nonsense and do not get me started on birthing people or chestfeeding.....

@StolenCookie you say you feel like a woman. How? What feelings do all women and transwomen have that men and transmen do not? You can’t define a word by using that word. You’re an ardent feminist remember, you should know better

It’s a good point. Consent is important, particularly if a woman has been abused and the sight of a penis would be triggering, for example. I don’t have a solution! But I actually never argued in this thread that trans women have a right to female spaces, or anything of that nature at all.

It was literally just the language used.

So.. I feel like you are trying to have a ‘gotcha’ moment with me, but I really don’t have the answers and never said anyone was wrong for wanting to protect women’s spaces.

shrug

People really seem to want to see me as a villain here and pin these views on me but I never expressed them!

Yeah, wait til @StolenCookie getstokd shes not a mother, she’s a birthing parent, she’ll be shown how to chestfeed and she’s not a pregnant woman, she’s a gestational carrier. She really needs to keep up if she doesn’t want to be called a transphobe

But if you can’t define what a woman is you must understand that you’ve no place telling people that a trans woman is one.

Are you going to at least try to answer the question?

What about the other one? Is Rachel Dolezal black, and if not, why the double-standards? She says she is; why would you not accept that trans blacks are black?

Right, so you're pregnant and don't know what a woman is.

It is an adult human female. An adult human of the reproductive sex class capable of producing ova.

You might be an infertile woman, or a woman with a variation of sexual development, or a gender non conforming woman. It doesn't matter. You are of the reproductive sex class capable of producing ova. If you have a condition that interferes with your production of ova, you are still a woman: it is a condition that is recognisable only because it occurs in a female body. You are still of the reproductive sex class capable of doing it.

And you can't change it. You can take hormones and have surgery, and you still have a medically altered male or female body.

Less bewildered now?

I find your faux naivety quite odd @StolenCookie As you think TWAW, do you think they should be included in diversity quotas, which is on the anvil? My DH works in a field dominated by men. His firm has been told to hire more women returning to the workforce, especially POC. He thinks that at some point, a transwoman who has enjoyed the privilege of being a man will put themselves forward for this scheme. The TW would have had no social barriers ( such as POC women often experience), would not have had to take time off to birth babies, would have been able to do less housework, would have been able to work late..... Is this fair? Pip Bunce has already been included in the UK's top 100 female executives and Maya Forstater lost her job for expressing how unfair that was. My DH would probably lose his if he said what he really thinks.

As Seb Coe said, high time we put fairness before inclusivity and biology before gender.

Huh..?

Yes I believe trans women are women. I know this seems to be incredibly controversial here but.. yeah. I believe it, completely!

You argued that they are women. If you believe that they are women then of course they have the right to be in women’s spaces.

Do you think perhaps that they aren’t actually women?

But I believe that some people feel they are born in the wrong biological body. I’m aware this makes people here very angry, but it’s what I believe. And if they identify as a woman, that is how I will see them and refer to them!

Yes I believe trans women are women. I know this seems to be incredibly controversial here but.. yeah. I believe it, completely!

Why wouldn't denial of biological reality be incredibly controversial?

@StolenCookie so how does one identify as a woman? If no one can define woman, no one can identify as one can they?

Then you are, simply, wrong. They are not women. They are not female.

They are transwomen.

Once you accept this obvious from space fact, you can ditch the faux naivety, the cognitive dissonance, the timing of how long knobs are waved about in your changing room before you're allowed to be uncomfortable and the exclusion of women from their services and spaces.

But that’s a different issue to consent. Which I think is an important one.

Honestly I really don’t understand what people are trying to catch me out on?

I believe trans women are women. I can’t help that this seems to make all of you incredibly angry!

But I believe that some people feel they are born in the wrong biological body.

How would they know what being born in a different body would feel like? I'm very short. That's problematic for me in many ways, but it is my biological reality. I'm not under any illusions I can identify my way out of it or expect anyone to agree with that.

According to Verso Books, you are a womb-carrier. That's where using terms like cis women leads. www.nationalreview.com/corner/womb-carriers/

That's why TERFS are speaking up against this word salad. Because tomorrow your right to abortion may be taken away - as it has in Texas- and it will be fine, because you are just a womb-carrier.

I am not white, and believe me, there are times when I would have liked to pass as white. Life would have been easier. But guess what, I can't. I can change my name to sound white to make life easier, I can give up the clothes of my heritage, but basically I can't identify myself out of my birth identity.

Yes I believe trans women are women. I know this seems to be incredibly controversial here but.. yeah. I believe it, completely!

Ah the one true faith type of believer, logic, evidence, critical or any type of thinking and proof not required just blind adherence to the tenets, without question or deviation, and constant chanting of the mantra.

Even if they are in the wrong body, they are in that body. They are sexed male or female and feelings don't change that. Man is male, woman is female. Add trans as a prefix if the gender identity doesn't align.

The real question is why that makes YOU so angry.

Well, I disagree with you. I absolutely believe they are women. It’s a shame this unsettles you to such an extreme degree! I’m baffled by your viewpoint but it doesn’t make me RAGE at my keyboard the way it seems to do for many of you!