To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

[portugalq]

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

And I’ve not realised till just this very evening how anti trans Mumsnet actually is

mumsnet isnt anti trans

there are undoubtedly anti trans posters on mumsnet and homophobic ones and racist one but their existence doesn’t make the site anything but an online forum

Hang on though. Someone up thread literally said they come to Mumsnet to get away from the ‘trans women are women’ nonsense.

Calling that website ‘anti trans’ feels like a fact rather than an insult.. do you really disagree?

If @stolen wants to see racism I recommend TRA Twitter, where they try to prove that transwomen are women because black women are women. It’s a definite eye opener for sure.

Sure, I get that, but I would have thought someone somewhere would agree with me on this topic and literally no one has.

It feels pretty anti trans around here! If I were trans I’m not sure ‘welcomed’ would be the feeling I’d have here…

I'm starting to think you can't be for real. You had whole posts about how you thought we needed to be tone policed and you were totally the heroine to do it. They're right there. And your "excellent arguments" have been nothing but offensive and ignorant false equivalences, cries of transphobia when people state facts and demands to respect a penis in a women's space.

It's truly embarrassing. I would be worried if I thought you actually believed you'd made "excellent arguments" but you clearly know you haven't. Who do you think you're fooling?

So @stolen, why do you believe transwomen are women? If we are ‘anti-trans’ for not believing that, why don’t you do one of your excellent posts to show us why TWAW.

Admit it @ReneBumsWombats , you’ve grown fond of me during this discussion! 😊

Is this all you've got now? At least make it funny.

I saw in another thread that sport might be the turning point in all this nonsense. For example, if a TW is not considered a woman for sporting purposes, where would they be considered a woman? With this and the the fact people seem to be waking up to this madness, I think we may see a return to sanity.

You can believe that TW are not women while still not being anti-trans. Just like you can believe that cats are not dogs while not being anti-cat.

To make it simple, I believe that TW can dress however they want, call themselves by any pronouns or names ( which I will use for them), be treated equally in the workplace and so on. But they must be kept out of women's sports, safe spaces, quotas, awards and anything meant for women. I think that is as clear as I can make it.

I believe people can identify how they wish.

You all told me you are most definitely not ‘cis women’, you are women - so that is what I shall refer to you as tonight in my diary! I will write about how I made a lot of new women friends on the internet tonight 😀

And if a trans person says they are a woman, I believe they are a woman and will respect them as such. And if they expose their penis to me in a changing room I will report them to the police, whilst still retaining my respect for the trans community as a whole and not calling them a “laddy”!

Sure, I get that, but I would have thought someone somewhere would agree with me on this topic and literally no one has

to be very fair it was your comment regarding knobs (god i hate writing that 😀) that people are particularly commenting on

if you’d just have said that you found the laddy comment transphobic/disrespectful you may have slightly less comments

Total agreement @CaliforniaDrumming and me expressing that view got me called a TERF.

Honestly, if your final paragraph were the ‘tone’ of this whole discussion I never would have piped up in the first place, and you all would have had a much less aggravating evening!

Personally stolen i think you misunderstood the ‘penis’ comment but aren’t able to back down from your stance

just my opinion in an ‘everybody has one’ kinda way

@stolen. Why would you phone the police about a woman getting changed in the women’s changing rooms? You realise you would not have a leg to stand on. You are the person wanting mixed sex changing rooms so you can’t complain if you see a penis in there can you?

And if a trans person says they are a woman, I believe they are a woman

Well, I say I am Ming the Merciless. Also that we are all right in this ridiculous "discussion" and you don't know how being a woman works.

So what do you believe now?

Beginning to believe you are a troll sent to check out transphobic MN @StolenCookie. Do you think transwomen should be allowed in female toilets and changing rooms? Never mind Mr Thomas.

Yes I agree I think things got quite derailed with ‘knob gate’. But interestingly very few people (I think only one actually) acknowledged the ‘laddy’ comment as being questionable. I still don’t see how a group of people who identify as not anti trans can stand by a comment referring to a trans person as laddy!

I would have thought someone somewhere would agree with me on this topic and literally no one has.

That's because you are wrong. You're wrong about what a woman is, you're wrong about the word knob and you're wrong about what's funny.

But if an intact male person claims to be a woman and you therefore believe that, why can't that person use the women's changing room?

@StolenCookie because we are grown ups. We don’t language police people.

You could be right! I may have misunderstood. As much as people want me to be some rabid troll, I’m really not. But personally, in a discussion around trans issues, I would never refer to a trans person as ‘getting their knob out’. It makes me cringe, it sounds transphobic and derogatory. That was really all I was expressing!

Well I don't see how a self-confessed intersectional feminist can equate "knob" with the N word or "bint". Or believe a male person is a woman while denying that person access to a women's changing room. Or complain about not showing respect to a knob in a women's changing room. Or ignore the questions asked about Muslim women who cannot undress in the presence of males. Or complain about disrespectful language on here while ignoring the landslide of misogynistic abuse I linked to just before.

Guess we're both going to have to live with confusion.

Yes yes, your complaint about not showing due respect to a knob being got out in a women's changing room and causing much distress has been noted and given all due respect.

But @stolen. What if it was a transman that we’d said was getting his knob out. Would that be transphobic or gender affirming?