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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

782 replies

portugalq · 19/06/2022 18:26

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

OP posts:
ReneBumsWombats · 23/06/2022 20:17

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:03

I haven’t, because I don’t frequent trans forums. I’m a woman, pregnant, so I come to Mumsnet. I can find the particular tone of this discussion problematic and express that. If I find myself on a TRA forum and find the language problematic there, I’ll tone police them too!

Please do.

Godspeed.

Take provisions.

Conflictedunicorn · 23/06/2022 20:21

@ReneBumsWombats to be fair to @StolenCookie i used to be a bit ‘be kind’. Then someone told me to ‘educate myself’. So I did. There was no more being kind. I think it was at the 4th or 5th ‘you’re a TERF you need to be raped until you die’, that I lost my last impulse to be nice. My crime was to suggest women needed single sex spaces.

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:22

Conflictedunicorn · 23/06/2022 20:11

to be fair, I extrapolated that data from the fact you are telling us off for not being nice and kind, but have not gone to tell the Transactivists to watch their language. That plus the fact that you defend transpeople as ‘vulnerable and oppressed’ gives me the clue you would be fine with derogatory language to women as long as a transperson was doing it. If you can’t see why women are angry, hurt and generally disgusted by the way they have been treated by this ‘vulnerable and oppressed’ group, I would suggest you do visit a few TRA sites and see how they talk about women Sorry “cervix havers’. Then pop back and if you feel the same, pop back. Or go and read some of the abuse sent to JKR. That might open your eyes as to why women are no longer ‘Being kind’.

I never told anyone to “be kind”! You said this in an earlier post and keep attributing it to me.

itsgettingweird · 23/06/2022 20:24

I've read all the latest posts.

Stolen the issue is that posters referred to 1 TW and youve taken umbrage with the language (fine) but you're repeatedly saying not to address the group that way.

NOONE has referred to TW as a group. Just one particular one who feels it's her human right to expose her penis to woman in a changing room.

You're the one who extrapolating what was being said towards the group as a whole.

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:26

itsgettingweird · 23/06/2022 20:24

I've read all the latest posts.

Stolen the issue is that posters referred to 1 TW and youve taken umbrage with the language (fine) but you're repeatedly saying not to address the group that way.

NOONE has referred to TW as a group. Just one particular one who feels it's her human right to expose her penis to woman in a changing room.

You're the one who extrapolating what was being said towards the group as a whole.

I disagree. If you refer to one trans person as “laddy” then you’re expressing transphobia. You can’t use the N word for one black person and then say you’re not being racist to all.

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:29

ReneBumsWombats · 23/06/2022 20:17

Please do.

Godspeed.

Take provisions.

I shan’t be taking the multiple straw men I’ve seen on this thread today! 😁The TRAs would have me for dinner 😞

ApplesandBunions · 23/06/2022 20:30

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:26

I disagree. If you refer to one trans person as “laddy” then you’re expressing transphobia. You can’t use the N word for one black person and then say you’re not being racist to all.

Urgh, did you really just compare the use of a racial slur to a term for men applied to a biological male trans person engaged in sexually threatening behaviour towards women? Fucking hell.

ReneBumsWombats · 23/06/2022 20:30

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:22

I never told anyone to “be kind”! You said this in an earlier post and keep attributing it to me.

It's a concept rather than an explicit phrase, as a way of shutting women up and derailing the discussion. We think you need tone policing.

If you are offended by "getting your knob out" in reference to one specific individual who did exactly that, it's probably best you don't go on to TRA Twitter or forums.

Conflictedunicorn · 23/06/2022 20:34

Bingo!! Now we’re up to the racism equivalency. I can tick that off my card now. Does that mean if a TRA calls one woman a horrible name to one woman, they’re expressing misogyny and it’s like they’re being racist. Please please go and tell them that. Why are you more upset with the language used than the fact a male bullied himself onto a women’s swimming team, took a place from a woman, walked round exposing himself to vulnerable women, and Anyone who opposed this was a ‘transphobic bigot’. Why does the fact someone pointed out he has a penis upset you, but not his actions?

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:35

ApplesandBunions · 23/06/2022 20:30

Urgh, did you really just compare the use of a racial slur to a term for men applied to a biological male trans person engaged in sexually threatening behaviour towards women? Fucking hell.

I did. I don’t think racist OR transphobic language is okay.

Conflictedunicorn · 23/06/2022 20:36

How is saying a male has a penis transphobic? Do please explain

ApplesandBunions · 23/06/2022 20:38

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:35

I did. I don’t think racist OR transphobic language is okay.

You're trivialising racism there. That really, really isn't ok.

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:38

Conflictedunicorn · 23/06/2022 20:34

Bingo!! Now we’re up to the racism equivalency. I can tick that off my card now. Does that mean if a TRA calls one woman a horrible name to one woman, they’re expressing misogyny and it’s like they’re being racist. Please please go and tell them that. Why are you more upset with the language used than the fact a male bullied himself onto a women’s swimming team, took a place from a woman, walked round exposing himself to vulnerable women, and Anyone who opposed this was a ‘transphobic bigot’. Why does the fact someone pointed out he has a penis upset you, but not his actions?

Sigh. People need to stop putting things in quotation marks that I never said 😐

I’m not upset that someone pointed out they have a penis. It’s the tone of the discussion that felt very transphobic to me.

And I stand by the racism equivalency. Racism, sexism, trans phobia, all of these things we could do without in the world me thinks!

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:40

ApplesandBunions · 23/06/2022 20:38

You're trivialising racism there. That really, really isn't ok.

Because transphobia is less hateful? I don’t agree with that at all. I think both are equally heinous and I certainly don’t trivialise either of them!

ApplesandBunions · 23/06/2022 20:41

Why do so many people complaining about 'transphobia' think racism against black people is their argument device? It's become a virtual trope at this point.

FOJN · 23/06/2022 20:42

StolenCookie

Ardent feminists don't usually tone police other women, they tend to engage with the substance of the argument rather than take issue with the way its presented.

I wonder what you mean when you refer to trans people? What was once understood to be upon a tiny group of people with gender dysphoria is now a much larger and diverse community, many of whom argue that gender dysphoria is not necessary to be trans and infact it is transphobic to suggest as much.

How is this group vulnerable and oppressed? As a PP pointed out everyone is bending over backwards to accommodate them, often at the expense of people with other protected characteristics, specifically women and anyone same sex attracted.
Just today, in the interests of inclusion, a publisher has been tweeting about "womb carriers" when refering to native American women who were forcibly sterilised in the 1970's. Even when discussing the horror of something which could only happen to women belonging to, an unarguably, oppressed minority the language was changed so that trans people didn't not feel excluded. They are excluded by the very fucking fact it did not happen to them.

I suspect you have a rather dated understanding of the issues at play here. Lia Thomas's team mates were offered therapy to deal with their concerns about unfair competition and having a naked male in their changing room. I do hope you don't think that is OK.

If you do venture into TRA territory then I'd take your hard hat and keep the visit brief. You are likely to encounter absolutely vile threats of violence and sexual violence if you express the opinion women are human and also worthy of respect and consideration. For real life examples you can look to the threatening and intimidating behaviour displayed by activists against women at a "Let women speak" event in Bristol at the weekend. Mostly young men in black bloc screaming misogynist abuse at women who wanted to ding nothing more than speak.

Conflictedunicorn · 23/06/2022 20:42

But not misogyny? Or Is that fine by you. It’s been pointed out that women are angry because of the misogynistic language used by the TRA but somehow you left that off the list of things you find unacceptable. Please explain the transphobia you have seen in this thread. Is objecting to a male exposing his penis to unwilling women transphobic? If so, why? Why would the feelings of the male be more important than the dignity and comfort of the females?

ApplesandBunions · 23/06/2022 20:42

Because transphobia is less hateful? I don’t agree with that at all. I think both are equally heinous and I certainly don’t trivialise either of them!

Yes, you are.

You have compared the use of a term for a male being applied to a male who is engaging in sexual harassment against women to a racial slur that is part of centuries of oppression. That is pure trivialisation.

VestofAbsurdity · 23/06/2022 20:45

But I think trans people deserve respect,

Is respect earnt or automatically given up until the person behaves in a way that that respect is lost?

Why do trans people deserve respect particularly? What about everyone else? Lia Thomas deserves NO respect for the way they have behaved both in and out of the swimming pool and nor do TRAs and their craven, simpering allies.

Rainbowshit · 23/06/2022 20:46

What? Why shouldn't we point out that a male got (insert pronoun) knob out in the female changing room? It's the truth. Perhaps you need to ask why that's unpalatable to you?

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:47

Conflictedunicorn · 23/06/2022 20:36

How is saying a male has a penis transphobic? Do please explain

Calling a trans woman “laddy” and saying something to the effect of “put your knob away” has a very transphobic tone.

I’m not condoning abusive behaviour, or trying to “shut women up” as someone else suggested earlier (quite ironic really as I can’t even keep up with the number of replies here!). I just expressed a view on the problematic language used. That’s it folks!

Conflictedunicorn · 23/06/2022 20:47

VestofAbsurdity · 23/06/2022 20:45

But I think trans people deserve respect,

Is respect earnt or automatically given up until the person behaves in a way that that respect is lost?

Why do trans people deserve respect particularly? What about everyone else? Lia Thomas deserves NO respect for the way they have behaved both in and out of the swimming pool and nor do TRAs and their craven, simpering allies.

This. Respect is earned, not given.

FOJN · 23/06/2022 20:50

TW contains examples of threats of sexual violence.

Vulnerable and oppressed people don't usually behave this way.

terfisaslur.com/

StolenCookie · 23/06/2022 20:51

ApplesandBunions · 23/06/2022 20:42

Because transphobia is less hateful? I don’t agree with that at all. I think both are equally heinous and I certainly don’t trivialise either of them!

Yes, you are.

You have compared the use of a term for a male being applied to a male who is engaging in sexual harassment against women to a racial slur that is part of centuries of oppression. That is pure trivialisation.

Really don’t understand your argument. The term “laddy” in relation to a trans person is not specific to the person in which it was used. It is purely transphobic and it doesn’t matter who you are referring to. The fact that the “laddy” in question was behaving abusively doesn’t make it ok to use that term.

I think if anyone is trivialising anything, it’s you trivialising transphobia..

Conflictedunicorn · 23/06/2022 20:51

@StolenCookie lia was called laddy because Lia is male, Lia has a penis. Lia was using that penis to make women scared and uncomfortable. Why should anyone respect Lia? A woman who was raped by a transwoman was told off in court for not calling her rapist ‘she’. Do you think that transwoman deserves respect?