To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

[portugalq]

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

And I never said it was.

I must have said ‘trans people as a whole’ at least a few times already.

There are people who are extremely vulnerable in society, the disabled for example. I prefer to save my sympathies for them, rather than these people who competed in sport as men, which is Lauren HUbbard, Mia Thomas and Emily Bridges, who then were not as good as they would like to be, and decided to compete as women.

I didn't call Thomas "laddy", so you'll need to ask the person who did.

If you're not offended by what I said, stop telling me how wrong I was to say it. It was a knob, it was got out, some people called it a human right and some people found other ways to try to shut women up about it. I'm more offended by the knob than a mild slang term used to describe it. Let your conscience be your guide.

@StolenCookie have you told the Transactivists you object to their language, that is demeaning and derogatory to women or is it just women’s language you want to police? Can you not see why women are angry? You are telling them to be kind and polite in the face of some if the most horrendous abuse, both physical and online. It smacks very much of double standards to me.

Yet you think using a slang term accurately to describe Lia's penis, not the penises of all trans people but only this one, somehow pertains to trans people as a whole and is a problem because of their particular vulnerability. Logic is absent.

I can completely see why women are angry. I’m honestly finding this whole exchange quite surreal as in my real life I’m the staunch feminist that gets everyone’s backs up advocating for women’s issues! But I think trans people deserve respect, and we can rightfully denounce the abusive behaviour of a few people without using derogatory language.

@StolenCookie but if you are saying transpeople as a whole are vile table and oppressed you are including Lia. Maybe I’m a bit thick with my female brain and all but could you explain how Lia is oppressed and vulnerable compared to the Rotherham victims for example.

Vulnerable darn it.

And as I said, go tell the TRA that. Tell them not to use derogatory language, and if they could tone down the rape and death threats that’d be peachy too. Ta muchly.

Er, no, that’s exactly what I’m not saying when I say ‘on the whole’.

@StolenCookie but that includes Lia. So if you are saying on the whole transpeople are oppressed that means Lia is also doesn’t it? Or are you saying some transpeople are not oppressed and vulnerable? Which ones would those be?

Honestly don’t see how this is relevant when I happen to be here discussing this particular issue.

Because you tried to tone police the women having this discussion. I’m just wondering why you haven’t tried to tome police the TRA? Or do they get a pass because they’re vulnerable and oppressed?

Sigh. No.

Let’s go with the premise that women, on the whole, are a vulnerable and oppressed group in society.

Myra Hindley was a woman. She committed terrible crimes.

That doesn’t erase the fact that she was a woman, nor that women are a vulnerable group on the whole, even if Myra Hindley herself wasn’t the victim in her interactions with others.

I hope that makes my position clearer!

I'm not sure I would agree that they are an oppressed group though.

They are a group who have the wholehearted support of most political parties, the civil service, the NHS, the Police etc. They have powerful lobby groups fighting for their interests. They have whole months of the year celebrating them.

Not only do they have the same rights everyone else has, they also have rights no one else has, such as the right to access single sex spaces for the opposite sex (regardless of whether those members of the opposite sex consent), the right to force other people to use non standard pronouns, and essentially the right not to have their feelings hurt. Expressing critical views about trans people or gender ideology is almost always condemned as transphobic.

Meanwhile, women have lost the right to have a word for themselves, any single sex spaces, and the right to identify themselves in a way that doesn't include male people. We have been redefined as people who perform feminine stereotypes, rather than female people, purely so that this group of male people can be included.

They are allowed to police the language we use to talk about them, but they are free to call us cis, and terfs, and bigots, without any consequences.

Society bends over backwards to accommodate them, usually to women's cost.

In what sense are they oppressed?

I think it’s wrong to use derogatory language towards trans people. If that is tone policing a group of women then fine - I think you should all be policed on your tone. I don’t take it back.

but you think it’s fine to use derogatory language towards women? Why? Why are trans people so special that no one must be derogatory towards them but they are allowed to be derogatory towards others? I’m just asking if you have called them out as you have called out the women on this thread?

I haven’t, because I don’t frequent trans forums. I’m a woman, pregnant, so I come to Mumsnet. I can find the particular tone of this discussion problematic and express that. If I find myself on a TRA forum and find the language problematic there, I’ll tone police them too!

Also I don’t “think it’s fine to use derogatory language towards women”. Please quote me if I have said anything like this in this thread. You’re just angry with my opinion and wanting to position me as someone who hates women or thinks they should be abused, and it’s ridiculous!

And that is precisely what we're doing when we accurately refer to a trans person getting their knob out. We are talking about the abusive behaviour of that person without using derogatory knowledge.

You're keener on policing the use of the word "knob" than the use of an actual knob. Yes, we know what you think needs policing, thank you.

to be fair, I extrapolated that data from the fact you are telling us off for not being nice and kind, but have not gone to tell the Transactivists to watch their language. That plus the fact that you defend transpeople as ‘vulnerable and oppressed’ gives me the clue you would be fine with derogatory language to women as long as a transperson was doing it. If you can’t see why women are angry, hurt and generally disgusted by the way they have been treated by this ‘vulnerable and oppressed’ group, I would suggest you do visit a few TRA sites and see how they talk about women Sorry “cervix havers’. Then pop back and if you feel the same, pop back. Or go and read some of the abuse sent to JKR. That might open your eyes as to why women are no longer ‘Being kind’.

People did say that sport would be the canary in the coal mine when it came to trans issues. Thank goodness for common sense

Indeed @cottagegardenflower hopefully this will be the start of the return to sanity.

I think we can express ourselves without using derogatory language towards an oppressed group.

The language was directed towards a selfish, entitled and misogynistic male bodied person, not towards any sort of “oppressed group”. It was richly deserved.