To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

[portugalq]

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

@StolenCookie they are referencing one of Lia Thomas’ teammates who said Lia did not always cover up in the changing room and was ‘clearly still attracted to women.’ Ie forcing the female swimmers to see an erect penis while changing.

Why am I not allowed to comment on Lia getting Lia's knob out in the women's changing room and people calling it a human right, when that is exactly what happened?

Are you equally appalled by all the misogynistic language used to silence women on this issue?

but some of the language used here, like ‘laddy’ and comments about getting your ‘knob out’, are really dreadful.

Tell us why it's 'dreadful'. They are men by sex, even if they have changed their names, grown their hair long and totter around in heels when not partaking in sport. As for getting their knobs out, if they were women there would be no knob to get out.

Yes, I was very pleased to read about this.

Finally, an organisation willing to stand up for women and talk some sense.

Thanks for explaining, I wasn’t aware of that.

I’m very much a feminist - extremely passionate about women’s rights. But I also feel like the tone of the discussion in this thread does feel quite transphobic in places. Trans people as a whole are incredibly vulnerable as a group. We can champion women’s rights, and welcome the FINA decision, without using derogatory language like “laddy” about trans people.

I'd be extremely interested to know why you have lumped the two together.

Whoops I meant for my comment to be a reply to @georgarina.

Lumped the two together? I’m not sure what you mean. The topic is about the FINA decision, which I appreciate is very welcome to the majority of people here, but at the same time some of the comments celebrating it, and the comments rightfully angry about the behaviour of some trans people, have used questionable language in my view. Referring to a trans woman as “laddy” is just not acceptable - I’m not sure why this is a controversial point.

Would it have been OK if I had said "expose your penis"?

I'm not scared of trans people. But I am bloody scared of a world that considers it a human right for a male person to expose a penis in a women's changing room and would sanction any of the women who dared to object.

You're appalled that I used the phrase "getting your knob out", I'm appalled that this can happen and you're more concerned with me using slang words to describe it. You say you weren't aware that Thomas had been erect at the time, but even a flaccid Thomas would not have been acceptable.

@StolenCookie I don't think it's transphobia, I think it's anger and frustration in reaction to the obfuscation and gaslighting language we've been dealing with - because let's face it, 'kindness' and 'inclusion' really means male athletes pushing women out of their own sport and exposing their penises in the women's changing rooms. That's what it really means for women and it's important to say it how it is.

You're appalled that I used the phrase "getting your knob out", I'm appalled that this can happen and you're more concerned with me using slang words to describe it. You say you weren't aware that Thomas had been erect at the time, but even a flaccid Thomas would not have been acceptable.

Yep. Fuck the tone policing.

I can understand the anger and frustration. Honestly - in my real life I am the most ardent feminist! I am absolutely on the side of women and fighting misogyny. But I also think it’s important to debate these issues in a way that doesn’t use derogatory language towards trans people as a whole.

I never said any exposure of anyone’s genitals is acceptable. And expressing concern about some of the language used in this thread doesn’t mean that I’m not concerned about the protection of women. One doesn’t follow the other.

I can tell people are very angry about my position but truthfully my honest view on all of this comes down to 1) let’s protect women and their right to exist in the world fairly and peacefully 2) let’s remain respectful towards trans people, who are an extremely vulnerable and oppressed group of people on the whole.

That point is valid in some concepts, but a cheating male getting their penis out in a womens changing room is not one of them.

Trans people as a whole are incredibly vulnerable as a group.

Perhaps, but I suspect that they keep a low profile. Those men who aren't as good as they would like to be and then declare that they are women and start winning women's races are most emphatically not keeping a low profile.

I think most of the world has always seen sense but they have been too frightened to voice their opinions - since, at best, they could expect accusations of transphobia, and, at worst, death threats.

I think we can express ourselves without using derogatory language towards an oppressed group.

Still don’t understand why this is so offensive to people here!

But I also think it’s important to debate these issues in a way that doesn’t use derogatory language towards trans people as a whole.

And how does the observation that an exposed knob does not belong in a female changing room and is not a human right constitute derogatory language towards trans people as a whole?

I never said any exposure of anyone’s genitals is acceptable.

Then why are you offended by my saying it isn't acceptable? It was a knob, Thomas got it out, it was called a human right.

Sure - so let’s direct our anger where it belongs - to that specific person - and not trans people as a group. When we refer to trans people as “laddy” and talk about “getting knobs out” it has a derogatory tone that I think is misplaced and problematic.

Because the phrase "get your knob out" isn't derogatory to trans people. It is what happened. And you are claiming to be an ardent feminist while ignoring the exposed knob and instead complaining about me calling it a knob that was got out.

But Thomas did get Thomas' knob out. How is that derogatory to trans people? How is it not derogatory to the women being forced to undress before the got out knob?

No. Getting his knob out is simply an accurate description of what happened, and demonstrably doesn't refer to any trans person other than Lia. I can see how reasonable opinion might differ on the laddy point, but on this you're just plain wrong.

I feel like I’ve already explained as well as I can. I’m not offended by what you said. I took issue with how it was expressed. We can agree to disagree! It’s possible to express outrage for something in a way that remains respectful towards an oppressed group of people as a whole.

Can anyone here really say that referring to a trans person as “laddy” isn’t derogatory? If you truly believe that it’s respectful, or harmless to the trans community, then we will just have to agree to disagree as there just isn’t anything further to discuss! I personally don’t think using words like that is ok just because you are angry or frustrated.

So if trans people are such a vulnerable and oppressed group, why are they the ones sending death and rape threats to women who disagree with them? Have you gone and told them to watch their language when they are shouting ‘die cis scum’ and ‘terfs should be raped with a studded baseball bat’? If not, why should women watch their language? Women are not the ones who intimidate people who disagree with them by shouting insults, bodily violence and nastiness. You object to describing a transwoman as ‘having his knob out’, but are not fine with women being bullied into submission. Why is that?

In the situation where Lia was exposing their erect penis to a group of women, it is not Lia who was the vulnerable one.

I’m not fine with women being ‘bullied into submission’. I’m on a women’s forum because I am a woman. We happen to be here talking about this issue. Some of the language feels problematic. I’ve shared my view on it. That’s all there is to it really?