To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

[portugalq]

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

Or is that trans people (who have not learned by then) will just refuse to learn to swim? They’ll be so disgusted by the transphobic stance of FINA (a body most people won’t have heard of) and refuse to learn to swim (as adults) and be more likely to drown?

Seems an unnecessary worry given that swimming is part of the primary school curriculum. And most people learn to swim as children.

And that I doubt whether there are any competitive swimmers who didn't learn to swim as small children.

Your posts however are strong and I couldn't agree more with everything you say.

Same with ice skating. They have or are petitioning to raise the age level for elite ice skaters from 15 to 17.

🤣🤣🤣👏👏👏👏

The logic goes like this

The male will not be allowed to enter the female catagory in compeditive races.

Once the parent realises that their 4 year old will never make it to Olympic Gold , the parent will not allow the child to learn how to swim. (If the parent has other children they will all be taught to swim.)
The child will never learn and be at risk of drowning because the child will still jump into the swimming pool /river or sea.

This will be based on projecting from socioeconomic research of how young children from poor backgrounds are not taught via free school programmes as the area has no pool or whos parents cant afford to pay for private lesons or where there may be no cultural experiences of going swimming as a leisure activity.

That’s the irony of all of this the men’s category is already open and always has been. if an elite male athlete is trans they are not likely to transition until their career is over. However, it is the mediocre ones who can’t compete against men who transition and try to force their way into the women’s category.

Swimming is part of the national curriculum. The target is that every child will be able to swim a length of the pool by the end of year 6. My last school was in a very rural area. It was a 32 mile round trip to take the children swimming. Every child in every class swam every week for the whole school year. The parents were asked to pay a contribution. Most did. Those that couldn't had it paid from the school fund. Swimming kit was provided for those that didn't have it/ forgot it. Evety school, everywhere dies their best yo do the same. Nobody who decides they are trans as a teen will drown if they went to a bog standard state primary anywhere in the UK.

Excuse the typos 😒

Oh, do take your toddler tantrums and sod off, will you?

It's not an ideology, either, for pp.

You'd class me as a 'tra' (just as I class most of you as the other anacronym) but for the present moment I think adding categories to ALL sports so that anyone can compete, would be the right move.

In order to further down the line have a better understanding (through long proper studies), on how trans men and women actually fare, when sportsing against each other and cis men and women.

My view would possibly go down like a ton of bricks with some of my social circle but the way I see it, unless every sport puts in the extra category, and allows for prolonged data analysis on this subject, then folks will know once and for all how this all works.

It's not the same at the moment when there's just one or two transathletes in one or two races/ events etc.

And for god's sake, can we all not discuss it without resorting to onemanupship and childish name calling and 'see we told you sos' and the number of other things I repeatedly see? This is something important which won't go away. How we handle things like this is important.

Getting off my soapbox now.

I see American soccer player Megan Rapinoe has called this decision "disgusting", resorting to the old 'argument' that 'transwomen aren't winning Olympic golds so it's fine".

I'd love to see her reaction if a team she had to play against fielded even one TW, let alone several - she'd soon, I'm certain, call foul on that.

In order to further down the line have a better understanding (through long proper studies), on how trans men and women actually fare, when sportsing against each other and cis men and women.

What more do we need to know?

We already understand the irreversible benefits of going through puberty as a male. That are not impacted by testosterone levels.

We can already see the stark differences between male and female achievements in sport.

We've already watched trans athletes rocket up hundreds in the ranks when they compete with women.

What more do you want and how many natal woman's careers are you going to stymie to get it?

I am sure the coach will have a detailed view on the hate crime of the UK Government decide to make parents send their children to swimming lessons looking at the research....

Not being allowed to compete in the female category will result in an increase of trans people drowning? The mind boggles at the ridiculousness of this, funniest thing I’ve read all day!

Everyone can already compete though. You get that, right?

The categories "male" and "female" are inclusive of everyone.

And yeah, I think believing that everyone is assigned a sex/gender at birth and that most people have an identity which corresponds to their sex but trans people have the opposite most certainly IS an ideology.

I think adding categories to ALL sports so that anyone can compete, would be the right move.

Which category of people cannot compete in sex-segregated sports?

Which category of people can't compete once "woman" means "any male who feels like it"?

every sport puts in the extra category, and allows for prolonged data analysis on this subject, then folks will know once and for all how this all works.

The data is there. It's been done. And it shows what you and every other human has known since age four. You can stand there denying it exists but that doesn't actually make it so.

Why are you even here on MN foot stamping about it? What do you recognise about the demographic that drew you here to cast your pearls among us in particular?

You:

And for god's sake, can we all not discuss it without resorting to onemanupship and childish name calling

Also you:

I class most of you as the other anacronym)

Getting off my soapbox now.

Thank God.

Lets guess

Male unmedicated
Male medicated
Female medicated
Female unmedicated

What's stopping the research. In non team sports the data will still be the data. The timing/ numbers which dictate placement wont change.

Leaving males in the male classification is not going to change their performances.
At least it should not change it.

Females on drugs may gain a limited benefit as the rules can be adapted to permit the use of preformance enhancing drugs. But the ideology that preformance enhansing drugs can be used as part of sport will not benefit sport as a whole.

Why is it so important that males taking drugs should somehow be classified as female?

I view the FINA decision as ensuring fair competition and their idea of a third 'open' category seems reasonable to me.

About time, that the cheaters were stopped from cheating and from forcing women and spectators to validate their delusions.

It has always been considered very dangerous for the dysmorphic patient if people validate them. I don't understand why it doesn't apply with regards to men identifying as trans. I know they might get violent otherwise but that also applies to male patients who feel they have too many legs and the general advice is not to validate their feelings.

I view the FINA decision as ensuring fair competition and their idea of a third 'open' category seems reasonable to me.

Personally I can't see the need for a third category as FINA has in fact now made the male category open to both transwoman and transmen on testosterone . This ensures that a previously excluded group of transgender people, transmen on T, can now compete in elite sports.

How would the parents of the 4 year old know to deny them swimming lessons on the basis they won’t be allowed to swim in the olympics in the women’s category?

Do people really only enrol their 4 year olds in swimming lessons at the local leisure centre because they think they are going to be the next Michael phelps? And not bother otherwise?

i think if I polled the parent of the beginners swim class, I’d learn they were motivated by things like it being a useful skill, they plan to go on holiday and would like the kids to be safer in the pool and it’s something to do with the kids on a wet November weekend.

There are groups who are more or less likely to get their kids swimming lessons. But none of them are motivated by an expectation of Olympic glory either. Their reasons are usually much more immediate or practical.

The Times is reporting that World Athletics and FIFA could follow suit.

I have been thinking it might only take one federation before the rest go like dominoes.

It gives them a precedent to follow. Principles and wording they can use and adapt to their particular sports. So it seems sensible that various sporting bodies will follow suit.

Do people really only enrol their 4 year olds in swimming lessons at the local leisure centre because they think they are going to be the next Michael phelps? And not bother otherwise?

As well as thinking there's a high likelihood they'll be transgender?

Of course not.

it's one of the weakest arguments I've heard in my life