To be relieved the world is starting to see some sense?

[portugalq]

Fina bars transgender swimmers from women's elite events if they went through male puberty www.bbc.co.uk/sport/swimming/61853450

And , let’s remember, there are actually two reasons for many transwomen wanting to swim against women, first it is an easy win, and second it validates their belief that they too are women, because look, here they are, swimming in a womens race. Proof.

This. This is why there's such a furore. This is why there's people arguing the toss with such ridiculous hyperbole defending men (the latest take on batshit twitter being that FINA decision will mean trans people will drown 🙄).

Males want to beat women and be validated and applauded whilst doing it. And for some unfathomable reason coughmisogynycough people can't seem to say no to them.

So we have to have big debates and discussion and research. 38 seconds. THIRTY EIGHT bastarding seconds L.Thomas beat a woman into second place by, and still there will be people coming up with ridiculous levels of unmitigated bullshit to defend it.

Well, the debate has been had, and the answer is no. Finally, a no. They can have their own, fair, category and if they don't like it they know where the door is. Women's sport is not a validation exercise. Women are not validation tools. We are not human shields, we are not easy competition. We are not there to be used at will, against our will. No.

Any boy that transitions that young will be semi-functional as an athlete. They won't come close to elite status, they will be extremely lucky to have basic levels of fitness due to the damage done to their bodies.

Very pleased about this and hope other sports follow suit.

Well, the debate has been had, and the answer is no. Finally, a no. They can have their own, fair, category and if they don't like it they know where the door is. Women's sport is not a validation exercise. Women are not validation tools. We are not human shields, we are not easy competition. We are not there to be used at will, against our will. No.

A woman after my own heart. NO NO NO, we need to keep on saying it.

Quite. But the point I am making is that some sporting bodies dgaf about the health and well-being of child athletes and will dope and drug kids just to see if it gives any perceived advantage.

Even if it turns out to be a failed experiment, it's only a few kids who's lives are ruined.

It happened in the 80's and will happen again

Couldn't agree more.

the latest take on batshit twitter being that FINA decision will mean trans people will drown

What's the reasoning behind that?

Honestly, I haven't a scooby doo. Batshittery perhaps? This is from someone who has Dr in their twitter name and in the same tweet says they are a former D1 swimmer (don't know what that is) and coach. Claims it will discourage people from learning to swim, hence the drowning.

But putting males in women's swimming won't discourage women from swimming, obviously.

Sorry, I know you didn't say it.

You're assuming that reason and logic come into it. They don't have a rational argument - and they know it - so all they've got left are loose accusations of "literal violence", "transphobia" and so on in the hope that if you fling enough mud some of it will stick.

the latest take on batshit twitter being that FINA decision will mean trans people will drown

Bless their heart. Life must be really tough if you think the FINA policy excludes you from the local swimming pool.

I'm starting to feel a bit offended by how pathetically weak the arguments are.

That was the case for me too. I was supportive of trans people as part of the wider LGBT+ group and when J. K. Rowling got attacked for her comments, I was really surprised why a woman who always struck me as caring and wise would be openly hostile towards a marginalised group.
I read her essay and realised she wasn't being hostile at all, just raising legitimate questions and cocerns about woman's rights. Labelling these questions as transphobic is just an easy way to shut up women.

But the point I am making is that some sporting bodies dgaf about the health and well-being of child athletes and will dope and drug kids just to see if it gives any perceived advantage.

We have just seen a pretty damning report about what was happening to children, mainly girls, in gymnastics, so can we hope that the "dgaf if medals are to be won " attitude, is also being called into question?

Faith in common sense restored. Yay.

I remember seeing a similar comment (no advantages after transition) somewhere couple of years ago, when the whole TWAW movement has started gathering momentum.

Since it became apparent that transwomen do have certain physical advantages against women (like in the case of Lia Thomas), the narrative seems to have shifted towards: "Well, some women are just taller/bigger/stronger than others".

After Lia Thomas' victory I've seen a comment somewhere saying that the actual issue was that we as a society expect women to always be slim and delicate. Apparently, that was the real reason some people were objecting the likes of Lia competing against women.

Such a weird arguemt in my opinion - surely depending on the sport we're used to seeing female athletes of different shapes and sizes? The biological women competing against Laurel Hubbard weren't delicate and dainty and yet nobody would expect them to.
The fact that biological women can be tall/ strong/ have broad shoulders doesn't mean that biologically male people are women too.

This is fantastic news for women, let’s hope every other sport starts copying this So that women can compete fairly with other women, not men who think they are now women.
Sharon Davies has put her head above the parapet in order to stop this and to draw attention to this. We’ll done Sharon and every other person who has fought for this.

Excellent decision.

At one end you get trans athletes winning races simply because of their inbuilt male advantage. At the other, if any sport adopted a no questions asked trans approach, it would get abused. A little "T" for trans in the footnotes won't remove the gold medal next to the name and given the stakes, you just know it would get abused massively.

The Open category is a great idea. Let's see what the hardline Misterhood say about it.

I had been wondering when reading a previous thread just how big the differences could be and I looked at the 100m. The late great Florence Griffith Joyner broke the women's 100m record in 1988, a record which still stands. Her world record wouldn't even get her into the top 6,000 times in the male rankings...

Let's see what the hardline Misterhood say about it

.

If you’ve seen what swimming looks like for 11 year olds with potential to be elite swimmers, you wouldn’t even be asking the question.

No child taking puberty blockers - with the serious effects they have on the body - is going to be dragging themselves to early morning training, then again in the evening multiple days a week, doing land training and pool training, travelling to competitions. Even if they did, they wouldn’t be able to compete with the other kids (of either sex) who aren’t on such serious medication.

It’s just not a realistic prospect. This is why TRAs are likely incensed by the ruling. It means that trans-identifying athletes will simply not be able to compete in the sex category they want to. The steps required to meet the criteria of not going through male puberty will rule out elite sport on performance grounds. No amount of tinkering around with testosterone levels or whatever can admit them entry to women’s competition after puberty. They just can’t have what they want.

They’ll drown?

does not getting to compete in the category you want actually remove your ability to swim? 🤣

Did they change the swimwear rules at all? The FINA rules have specific regulations for male and female competitions, which would prevent a trans woman (from example) from competing in the male
category but wearing a skinsuit rather than jammers (or skimpy briefs). Letting swimmers wrestle themselves into skinsuits rather than jammers in the men’s category seems reasonable (if they’re so inclined). I would imagine FINA would need to consider whether the skinsuit wearers gained an unfair advantage (as in the full tech bodysuit debacle), but I guess they wouldn’t be preventing everyone from wearing one in the men’s category.

Swimsuits are likely to be more problematic because of coverage issues for people with male physiology. Sure, those little briefs are skimpy but they aren’t cut like swimsuits and actually hold the relevant parts in.

Swimming county champs for 11 yr olds show that the girls are faster than the boys. Regional qual times are also faster for 11-12 girls than boys too.

British Swimming and Swim England framework also has girls moving up a stage at 12 as opposed to boys at 13 so I'd say FINA's use of age 12 fits this.

I'd like to hear how the science explains that someone who had been through make puberty will drown if they can't swim in a swimsuit like a woman 🤦🏼‍♀️🤣

On the swim.org website you still select the swimmers gender to get their rankings etc.

I hope that we start to see that chance to say sex soon. They need a consistent message.

Maybe being entered into a category they don’t identify with literally causes them to forget how to swim. They’re so overwhelmed by it that they will drown.

Its like the hyperbolic arguments I’d have made as a teenager about how I would literally did if I had to wear or do whatever dreadful thing my parents expected me to.

Wow, a sporting body actually prepared to stand up for women's sports. Fingers crossed others will now follow?