Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

Not in western society. It’s consumer focused.

I read something once about why what happens to a woman's body (and indeed mind) through pregnancy and especially birth is intentionally not spoken about widely as the truth would put a lot of people off doing it. I'd never even fathomed of a 3rd degree tear, incontinence and falling into a state of numb depression. It really seems people who make it out the delivery ward in one piece should thank their lucky stars.

Maybe you don’t value teachers, but I certainly do, and think that most other people do too.

If society valued them, they’d have better pay and less kids in a class

Motherhood is a thankless task. You give everything, your whole self, your identity, freedom and prospects.

That's not true for everyone. I don't thinks it's healthy to lose your self, your identity, your freedom or prospects when you have children.

And what a wonderful thing that would be, actually requiring that people know how to be a good parent before having children. Instead just anyone can.

I agree.Society doesn’t value motherhood or family life.

I disagree. Society fetishises family life to a ridiculous degree. And meanwhile the planet would benefit from fewer people having children. Arguably it would be a lot easier to create that ideal society if fewer of us had children. Congratulating people for procreating, and trying to make the world revolve around parenting and children is not necessarily an entirely positive idea. Society would not function sufficiently to cater for the population if we had a 4 day working week and if only one parent out of every couple worked!

I don’t think this is a simple one.

Having a baby, is fairly simple for most. It took me well over a year to get pregnant, both times. But it still isn’t an achievement.

Once pregnant and deciding to keep and raise the baby, the bare minimum (imo) is raising the baby well. And plenty of people don’t. Simply having a child and keeping it alive has no achievement to it at all. It’s the bare minimum once you decided to do it. You can parent awfully, or really well or be somewhere in the middle. Abusive parents are still parenting and it definitely shouldn’t be an achievement.

Building a career, studying, progressing etc is not the bare minimum. No one gets praised at work for doing the bare minimum. And when people are praised at work it’s by people directly impacted.

Occasionally people are impressed by job titles, but that’s usually when the job title automatically shows there’s been a big level of going above and beyond the basic, in terms or work OR education. Or that it’s a job that few people could do, like brain surgeon.

But then in parenting, achievements are how you view it. I consider the fact that my dd is now 18 and an intelligent, kind, level headed young woman as an achievement. But it’s not just down to me. It’s down to her and the many people who have influenced her. grandparents, her uncle and auntie, my friends, her friends, her friends parents. Especially her college tutors in the last year of her a levels, who managed to build up her confidence levels in her own intelligence after missing her GCSEs, so much so that she is now going to uni to study law, where she felt that was beyond her.

I look at my daughter and am very proud. But it’s not MY achievement. I can say I have done the best I knew how to and think I did quite well.

But when I look at parenting achievements, I think of things like, actually getting the kids out of the house and myself to work, without forgetting anything. Teaching the kids to cook, when I couldn’t cook myself at one point. So had to learn, then teach them.

I often felt I have achieved loads when the kids were in bed, house was clean and tidy and the kids went to bed happy.

But these achievements are only things I recognise for myself. I don’t look for Larissa from those things, myself.

leaving an abusive marriage was an achievement. Getting the kids to a place where they have dealt with the trauma of that and are happy kids is an achievement. But it’s not one that I expect from others. My kids are older, so yes they thank me for things. In more sentimental moments dd will thank me for raising her.

My mum died in December. Dd has managed to thrive at college and in the lead up to her exams, whilst grieving. That’s an achievement and she knows I am proud of her, but that achievement isn’t going to be recognised by society as a whole. I think me remaining a supportive parent and being able to shove the overwhelming sense of ‘I want my mum’ and step up for the kids and cry later, is an achievement. Carrying on working and earning money and doing the weekly shop, and getting ds to school and walking the dogs, all feel like an achievement. Because I am doing it despite the pain I am in.

something can be an achievement, to you, without it requiring the rest of society to public ally recognise it.

Who do you think should be thanking you?

If we’ve created a society that needs two parents to work, all the time, we’ve created a broken society. And western society absolutely does not prioritise family life.

What about people who don’t want / can’t find/ can’t have ’a family’.

Shouldn’t we all have value, not just parents?

I do agree that one income should be enough to have a good life, I mean that effect single people unfairly bad.

You don’t have to have biological children to be of value - some people are fantastic aunts, good friends, godparents etc. And if you don’t want to be around kids at all that’s also fine, I’m not saying that only parents should be valued.

If we’ve created a society that needs two parents to work, all the time, we’ve created a broken society. And western society absolutely does not prioritise family life.

Ok, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I fundamentally disagree with both of those statements. A large proportion of working-class parents have always worked. In early human societies everyone did their bit. And society is a lot more child-centred than it has ever been.

Honestly eastern society doesnt value women either. These threads always blame Western culture but I will take it over my Eastern culture in most areas.

That said, I think the OP is looking for support and TLC rather than an analytical discussion.

They worked in labour to directly support their lives, not made up jobs like admin and middle management. A lot of our society is socially constructed.

How are those “made up jobs” any more than any other job?

Should Glaxo have only a board and then front-line workers, with no-one in-between?

You only have to look at any of the threads about SAHPs on here to see that mumsnetters, in general, do not value the job of parenting. Career and working outside the home is everything on here. Personally, if I was ever asked to list my greatest achievements in life, number one on my list would be having my DD. I do have a degree and a career, but they would be way down the list for me. Seems I'm very much in the minority, but there you go, we're all different.

A lot of jobs are made up, those were only examples. I would prefer a simpler, less consumer focused society.

MN is incredibly career focused, I’ve no idea why.

I don’t think you can compare a career or other achievement with raising children tbh. They aren’t the same. It’s difficult to articulate but your career is for you but when you have dc, everything you do is for them. That’s not to say that raising children well isn’t an achievement, but its something that everyone could do.

Raising my family is the most difficult thing I’ve ever done, but it’s also the thing that has brought me the most joy. And while I am so proud of my dc - prouder than anything else in the world! - that isn’t because of anything I have done, it’s just because they are themselves.

They worked in labour to directly support their lives, not made up jobs like admin and middle management. A lot of our society is socially constructed.

Every body works to directly support their lives.

besides which my mum was the first woman in her family in her mum living memory, that didn’t have an outside job home. My Nana remembered her own Nana working outside the home. And they likely did before that. That’s going back to at least mid 1800s.

The concept of sahm was completely alien to my Nana who even worked when my grandad was away working in the Navy, in the early days of their marriage and they had one child at that time.

But that’s not the point. Getting pregnant and giving birth is one thing. Raising a child well is totally separate. Yes most people can get pregnant not all can raise children well

Having a child is simply a biological act. You are either lucky and can or aren’t and can’t, assuming you wish to. Some of the worst humans in the world have procreated. People do it by accident. It is not an achievement in itself.

being a good parent is an achievement. And the only people who can tell you that is your child when they are an adult and no longer reliant on you and able to be honest.

a successful career is very different. And just like being a good parent it takes multiple skills and not everyone can be or is. Sadly just like being a good parent many folks think they are, when they are not, or think they are more capable career wise than they are and the lack of success in either sphere is not their fault.

I get the impression it's not so much career focused but rather being independent and financiallyresponsible?
How many threads on here where women place themselves in very vulnerable situations and do nothing about it- no qualifications, no job, sahm, stuck in a bad situation, many kids etc.

I was talking about further back than that, and yes everyone supports their lives but again it’s now in a socially constructed manner- money for example, is made up. Most people don’t grow their own food or hunt it, for example. They buy it nicely packaged from Tesco’s and never think about where it comes from.