Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

It isn't that we don't understand why other people value it. We just don't agree with the value that you ascribe to it.

It's just personal preference. Neither approach produces "better" outcomes.

Of course my children are aware of their priviledges. I don't encourage them to pity people who are are different to them though.

I don’t think he thinks that. I think he just didn’t think of the two being joined up and interconnected. DS sometimes compartmentalises stuff, so he probably won’t have thought about things like the families of doctors or librarians.

Even if as he grows up he decides he thinks it’s best for mothers to be SAHM - so what? Plenty of women think that too. Marriage and relationships are about compatibility, if you both have fundamental differences in values than youre incompatible. It’s that simple. Nothing to feel bad about.

@catculture That makes it sound like you think working parents switch their parenting brains off while they are at work and only start parenting again when they get home. It's not like that at all. They still have to do all those things you do plus work. It's not half parenting and half working. It's all parenting AND working. If you can't handle doing both, then that's fine, but you're not doing more just because your children are in front of you longer.

They still have to do all those things you do plus work. It's not half parenting and half working.

You take your kids out and educate them while you’re at work? Interesting.

Yes I think it is personal preference. Exactly. For instance, some women are very open about not having the patience to SAH. They would get depressed, etc or feel financially vulnerable. I totally get that and wouldn't advise any woman to SAH in that state. A good mum is a happy mum ultimately. For some mums this means having a paid job as well. For some mums, they are happier and more fulfilled being with their kids and just focusing on that. Women have different motivations and personalities.

I am a working parent. I will freely admit there are times I am stressed with work and have nothing left for my kids at the end of the day. Sometimes they are sat on screens while I finish up work or do a late call. And don't even get me started on lockdown. Of course a SAHP can devote more time (and potentially headspare) to their children.

I still am happy with my choice and consider it optimal for me, my children and actually also society (because it aligns with me values). My children benefit from different things that I feel our set up brings to the table. But of course I can see the benefit to children to have parents who have time and headspace to really invest in that sort of thing. It's not either or.

School educates them. School is definitely much better qualified to do that than I would be.

Are you a home educator @ForestFae ?

@adlitem

No, my kids never had a pcg. They've always had 2. They've got 2 parents. They also have grandparents and aunts and unlces and friends parents

All with secure attachments. You can even throw in teachers.

If wp can achieve what sahm do why do you see value in someone committing to just being a sahm?

I didnt say we should force women to work but in order for men to take on more traditionally female roles, women have to share them. As forest fae said, someone needs to work. So if we want men to do more childcare, women need to do more work

At my kids school it's mostly wp doing the school fete etc. The woman I spoke about earlier who judged wp presumed I was a sahm because i was volunteering at the school.

So no. I dont see any value to the role because I dont see a benefit and I think it has negatives too.

They get taken out and educated, yes. Your job as a parent is to make sure they're experienced and educated. It doesn't have to be by you. In fact, some people are better at teaching some things than you are.

I have an ok reasonably paid job and I am proud of what I do (public sector), but personally my DH and I feel our children are our greatest achievement. I dont expect anyone else (possibly apart from doting grandparents) to agree with us though, it's personal to us and of no concern/interest to anyone else! Same as I'm not especially invested in anyone else's career or parenting success, beyond a quick well done /night out on the town depending, unless they've done something truly remarkable - so I certainly don't fall in the category that considers a high flying career a particular success just because it pays well either.
I didnt finish uni and l dont have a six figure salary so I can't compare with that, I also can't relate to the 'hardest job in the world' comments as for me it hasn't been, but then I appreciate we all have a different experience. Giving birth is the hardest most painful thing I've ever done so of course there's a sense of achievement in that (but that was less than 60 hours of my life so doesn't exactly define me), there are days/ weeks /months when parenting feels like the hardest thing ever, but it's also the source of my greatest joy so overall no dont think it's harder than literally any other job (I am well aware of how fortunate I am to have healthy children and a supportive partner which obviously has a huge impact on my experience). Dealing with a difficult teen going through mental health difficulties, managing a child struggling because of their neurodiversity, cleaning up yet another toddler poonami off carpets and walls - all really hard at times, but is it harder than being a care worker or police officer? I haven't chosen those jobs because I think they're too hard and give insufficient compensation - being a parent is something I've actively chosen and I'm currently still very much rewarded for it by my partner and children, it's not society's job to value my parenting as an achievement.

@Topgub ok yeah, it doesn't have to be just the one. Agree there.

If wp can achieve what sahm do why do you see value in someone committing to just being a sahm?
Because that part of what I do has value. Same as it does for the SAHP. That's what I mean, just because someone else can do it doesn't mean it's valueless. That's like saying that only working has value, and the other bits are valueless but we just do them too. That's a little like saying people who just work are valueless because WP could do that too.

I have a pretty good career and am the main earner at home. I still consider my role as a parent more important and valuable than my job if I had to choose betweem them. I am there to make the company money, at home I am helping to shape humans. Luckily I can have both!

Idiots can become parents, but they can’t become Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants etc.

You don’t hear of someone accidentally falling qualified as a neurosurgeon in their teens.

I think that is why it is less respected, because so many women are mothers but relatively few have highflying careers.

I am truly impressed when I see a mother excelling both in her career and as a parent, it isn’t easy.

Idiots can become parents, but they can’t become Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants etc.
You don’t hear of someone accidentally falling qualified as a neurosurgeon in their teens.
They can still be assholes though. A good job doesn't make you a good person. I believe that sureons have the highest proportion of psychopaths of all professions. Pilots and lawyers are in the top 10 too.
Having a "good" job isn't the old way we can contribute to society :)
[from a lawyer]

Exactly this.

Even if as he grows up he decides he thinks it’s best for mothers to be SAHM - so what?

i grew up with a sahm. Want to know why I don’t think it’s best?

my dad dropped dead before he was 50. Leaving my mum as a single parent of two young kids with no qualifications, no way of getting back into working, or earning an income.

so personally I think women should never cut themselves off from their own independence, and rely wholly on a man for financial support. Because if something happens to him- and apart from death or sickness we all know how often marriages fail, you’re left up shit creek.

that’s why I have always worked.

i also agree with pp who said that if we want men to take on more parenting and home responsibilities we need to share the work burden as well.

Yes going to work and earning money is a vital part of parenting. Of course it is. My husband is just as much of a parent, even when he's overseas.

But when I was at home all day with kids - what did you think was happening, say between 8am and 6pm? As I said, we didn't go into suspended animation.

I used to take them to all those groups like Tumble Tots, Monkey Music, Messy Makers. I had a house full of kids most of the time. You make a lot of friends who are in similar positions and you get together with them. Just to stay sane! I used to just make things up to go and do. A hell of a lot of mess gets made - every day. There's no nursery to drop them off at where all the mess gets made and then it stays there. There's no nanny to hand them over to so you can just walk out the door hands free. There is nobody. The kids are with you constantly 24/7. If you have more than several kids of different ages, as I did, it's a lot and I couldn't imagine paying anyone enough to do it all frankly. Lots of nannies don't drive or something anyway. It's not the same as on the weekends or evenings when your husband is home. It's hard to explain, but it's different and it's 100% consuming.

I agree, I wouldn't ever want to be solely responsible for my dd's education. It is extremely important to me that she is exposed to different perspectives and ideas alongside my own, so that she can properly formulate her own opinions. I wouldn't want her to only have access to what I can offer her, as I feel that her education is so much richer for having access to various different educators.

The fact that @ForestFae's ds, at 7, didn't seem to realise that some children live in family set-ups that are a bit different to how own, suggests that he might not really be getting a breadth of different perspectives and experience. Of course, that might well be how @ForestFae wants it to be... she clearly has quite fixed ideas about the "best" way of doing things and perhaps wants to impart those values to her children without them being exposed to different ideas that might challenge those values. It isn't what I would have chosen though. Again, it's a matter of personal preference.

Even before she started school, I feel that my dd's early years were immensely enriched by having a few hours each day with her nanny. The nanny brought different skills and personal qualities to those offered by me and DH, and they really complemented what dd got from me and DH. Personally, I feel that her early years were much more balanced as a result of that mixture than they would have been if dd had been exclusively looked after by me. It just depends what you want for your dc, I suppose.

I understand that. What I don't understand is how you've gone from thinking that women working is a sign that they've been corrupted by the capitalist machine, to saying that your husband working is fine because he's either WFH or home by 4. So he's immune from capitalist machine corruption because his job lends itself well to family life. Surely by that token it's fine for women to work if their roles also lend themselves well to family life? Or are men different for some mysterious reason...?

I wasn't aware children only made mess between 8 and 6. I should tell my kids that.

Did I dispute that? Your response doesn’t really relate to what I said.

I am saying those careers are respected because you have to be very intelligent, which is rarer, thus more impressive.

@iBrows Sorry. I was still on the "value" train that was being discussed. thought you were refering to that.

@adlitem

Exactly

I've said parenting has value. It does.

You dont need to just parent. That has no value.

What I'm saying is - obviously - a lot more happens between 6am and 8pm, then between say 5/6pm and 8pm. Being with kids for 3/4 hours per day is nowhere near the same thing as being with them all day. I'm sorry, it simply is not.

If you are working then you are no less a good parent because earning money is parenting. Working places other demands in you and I fully appreciate that. But the evenings are not the same as all day. My husband would never try to claim he does the same amount of childcare as I do - how can he if he's physically not here?

@catculture

used to take them to all those groups like Tumble Tots, Monkey Music, Messy Makers. I had a house full of kids most of the time. You make a lot of friends who are in similar positions and you get together with them. Just to stay sane! I used to just make things up to go and do. A hell of a lot of mess gets made - every day.

Yeah. I did all that and worked.

So?