Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

So it's OK for your DH to work and not be available 24/7 to the children, because he's 'at home'/'back by 4pm', but evidence of capitalist ruin when women do it? Or alternatively is it OK when your husband does something (especially as he's funding the lifestyle you think is the best), but only your husband? As you've never made that distinction on this thread, that women who work are just as good as SAHMs as long as they WFH half the time or are home by 4...

@ForestFae

But he wasn't sorry for kids whose dad's see them less?

i mean his best friend is a boy in foster care, his uncle (my best friend) is an openly gay man, he’s definitely exposed to families outside of the standard traditional middle class SAHM set up.

He hasn’t said anything is sad about the parents. He feels bad for the children, because he thinks they’ll miss their mothers, presumably because he would. That’s a normal thing for a child to think.

Unfortunately, DH and I aren’t rich enough to have neither of us work. If we could, we absolutely would. But we have to make the best of the situation we have, which is one parent being a SAHP. We’d both love it if DH didn’t have to work either!

@ForestFae

Your kids must be pretty isolated if they don't know any women who work

I presume that you explained that they are well cared for by others, and actually perfectly happy without their mothers?

How would my DS know whether other adults work or not? He doesn’t talk to his friends about their mothers…they talk about stuff like Nintendo and in DS case, space!

I said they don’t know any different because their mothers have likely always worked, and he is privileged to have a family that can afford to have a parent stay home. Believe it or not, I do bring my kids up to acknowledge they are fortunate.

@ForestFae

Ummmm.

By being a part of society?

My kids know what their friends do for a living.

They know female teachers, librarians (you'll like that 1) doctors, nurses,

They know women work ffs

Feeling sorry for someone IS pity. Him believing having a SAHM is BETTER is damaging for him, his future, and his future family unless he finds a woman with no ambition beyond raising children. You're actually limiting him by giving him such a narrow mind.

@ForestFae

don’t know any different because their mothers have likely always worked, and he is privileged to have a family that can afford to have a parent stay home.

So you reinforced the idea that he should feel sorry for them by saying the poor dears don't know any different and he's so so lucky to not be in that position

Of course they talk about their parents 😂

Yeah ok @ForestFae , I’m also lost as to why he isn’t horrified that his dad is at home.
This is your son’s reality, saying he’s horrified is just ridiculous. At least when he grows up, due to others working, he will have access to free school, the NHS, police, a working system etc and also hopefully he’ll grow up to understand that people are free to make their own choices based on their needs and those people he has been taught to look down on are doing a really good job

Completely agree. What's the achievement you want recognition for OP?

Shagging?
Carrying a baby to term?
Having it delivered by professionals in our free at the point of service NHS?

About a million people a year manage this, just in the U.K.

Urgh, types a long answer and lost it. But, breifly:

Does it? I thought the research showed children having a secure attachment with a range of carers was the ideal? My children never had a pcg.

Your children didnt' have a primary care giver? You and/ or you husband weren't their primary care givers? Grandparents? Or perhaps a key worker at childcare? That's unusual. But yes, I believe so - they should early on be making bonds with a limited number of adults. Obvs this can be achieved in childcare provision too, if you can afford good quality childcare, and I think the results were pretty insignficant as to longterm impact, but if we are talking about "ideals"

What does that have to do with having a sahm? Are you suggesting wp can't give good parental input? Or that they can't create well balanced children?

I specifically said it can be achieved. But I can see the value in someone committing themselves to this entirely (not that that is my experience that all SAHPs do in RL)

Feminsm is about equality. Not choice. I'm not aware of any backlash in Scandinavia?

My anecdotal experience is there is. Not a huge uprising or anything, but more a bubbling frustration from some that women aren't able to make the choices they want to make about staying at home (normally for a limited period) where they feel that's best for them and their families.

We need women and men to do all roles for equality. Not for women to hog being sahp.

Forcing women to work the way men are seen to be doing when they dont' want to isn't going to achieve that. Men taking a bigger role in the traditionally female roles will.

So yeah, I still don't get what it a sahm can do that a wp can't

But that doesn't mean they have no value? Unless you only see value in paid employment. They can have value and WP can have value too. They can add value to their families, and to the community (e.g. in my kids' school it's the SAHPs (mainly mums) that volunteer to do all the stuff that lets the schools do stuff, setting up school picnics, tombolas, sitting through 15 children sound out "I am Kipper" - I wouldn't have niether the time nor will to do that). I am not saying they are "better" than WP, I am just saying that it's not a competition or one up man ship and they of course have societal value too.

He has obviously seen women in these positions - he has allergies and has a female dietician ffs. I just don’t think he made the connection between women working outside the home and kids not having their mums with them. He’s 7, it’s not really something he thinks about.

Hmm, nice way of reinforcing his prejudice. Telling him how lucky he is to have a sahp...but don't worry darling, those poor deprived children of working parents will be OK because they don't even know what they're missing.

FFS!

So you are enforcing his pity.

Poor kids of working parents, who aren't as privileged as us to allow mummy to stay home with, and all for, you. Don't worry son, they don't know any better.

Jeez, really digging that hole here.....

I can only speak for myself. But I would not have been a SAHM if it meant financial insecurity for myself or my children. Nor would I have been a SAHM if I had a husband who didn't understand the value of it (a bit like certain women here on MN)! If you're in that type of relationship with someone who doesn't get it, don't be a SAHM!

I know a lot of SAHMs. Maybe i can explain the benefit to a family like this - If you don't have a large part of your time, headspace and energy taken up by a job, then you have significantly more time, energy and headspace for your kids. A lot of SAHMs get very involved with their kids education and other activities. You are with them ALL day, every day (not just evenings) and obviously a lot goes in those days. Children don't go into suspended animation and then switch on again after 5pm. It is all day, every day, so you have to be quite structured and you find / develop things to do with them in that time that you wouldn't be doing otherwise. Nobody is going to find your kids as interesting as you do. Even the best nanny in the world will see it as a job.

Some couples just function better when they have more distinct roles and they can focus and let the other one get on with it. Even if my husband has been one of these who could work shifts around me or something like that, I don't think our lives would have been better for it. We would have a lot less money for a start, so for us that wouldn't make sense.

He doesn’t look down on anyone.

Because he’s used to it, and he made the assumption others have a similar set up.

@ForestFae

So we've gone from him being horrified and really sad so you could try to imply kids feel bad without their mums to its not that deep and he doesn't really think about it.

Lol. If you bring your kids up unaware of their privileges, that’s bad because it leads to people not understanding disadvantage and systemic inequality. If you tell them they’re privileged, that’s bad because they’re “looking down” on others. Can’t win. 🤷🏻‍♀️

He has obviously seen women in these positions - he has allergies and has a female dietician ffs. I just don’t think he made the connection between women working outside the home and kids not having their mums with them. He’s 7, it’s not really something he thinks about

or he’s reached the conclusion that professional working women don’t have children, because his norm is women with kids stay at home, because that’s the “best” option in your world.

feel sorry for his future wife.

"I know a lot of SAHMs. Maybe i can explain the benefit to a family like this - If you don't have a large part of your time, headspace and energy taken up by a job, then you have significantly more time, energy and headspace for your kids. A lot of SAHMs get very involved with their kids education and other activities. You are with them ALL day, every day (not just evenings) and obviously a lot goes in those days. Children don't go into suspended animation and then switch on again after 5pm. It is all day, every day, so you have to be quite structured and you find / develop things to do with them in that time that you wouldn't be doing otherwise. Nobody is going to find your kids as interesting as you do. Even the best nanny in the world will see it as a job"

I dont think anyone can argue this has value. At least to the kids involved. I sometimes feel bad I can't do this. But not for long, my children are fine and contribute to their wellbeing and development in different ways. And I don't really have it in me anyway. That doesn't mean I can't see the value in it.

My experience is though that not all SAHPs do this.

My point is a 7 year old would find a lot of things upsetting, to say it’s misogynistic that he wants his mum around and feels bad for kids who don’t have that is a bit ridiculous.