Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

I’m not saying they don’t. I’m saying that while they’re at work, someone else has to do it. I’m saying if you think the nursery worker who cares for the child while the parent works has value, than the SAHM should too.

@ForestFae

Not every wp outsources childcare

We didn't

But even still, what value to the child do those hours gain?

What is it achieving that a wp isn't?

That depends on what the SAHP does in those hours really doesn’t it? So it will vary between families on what they get out of it.

Parents should be role models. My DH looked down on his dad who never worked after he lost his job, he respected his mum who worked freelance despite having 4 kids. He also didnt think much of his aunt who never worked after she lost her job and blamed the job market on 'turkish immigrants who were stealing all the jobs' (you could consider her a stay at home mum cos she had 2 kids when she lost her job). Even kids have an innate sense of fairness.

People don't tend to respect rich kids who do nothing with their life and spend their inheritance/trust fund. On the other hand, Sheryl Sandberg's book was a bestseller because people respect a working woman who balances career and her 3 kids.

I think what we've established is the following pecking order:

1. WOHMs - respected by WOHMs and by society generally
2. SAHMs - respected by SAHMs, some WOHMs, and parts of society
3. Childless women - respected by nobody.

Can we now turn our attention to what kind of recognition would be sufficient? I can't believe we're at 32 pages and nobody has been able to name anything other than a nebulous "employers being nice to mums".

That’s a really capitalistic outlook though, as if the only value is finance, again. My kids value the fact I’m with them. DS1 was horrified when he learned most kids don’t have their mum at home - when DH and I explained most families have to have two parents working, he was upset and said he felt sorry for these kids for not having the time with their mothers. The racist aunt there is obviously an arse, but not because she doesn’t work, because she’s racist.

This idea that work is somehow noble is just again, capitalist brain washing. Life is to be enjoyed and experienced. If DH had the money, he’d quit work in a heartbeat and spend life with our kids and following his passions. Working isn’t inherently moral or noble, the system likes to tell people that because that’s how it maintains the status quo.

But what value or recognition do you want? You've said you made your choices based what's best for your family and not wider society. You say that your children and husbadn value you. What is the recognition you want? And from who?

@ForestFae

Give me ab example of something of value you think only a sahm can achieve

Don't forget:

1. Stepmothers - hated by everyone

We do need taxpayers to fund our welfare state. We already have an ageing population. I don't think its a great idea to tell women in their 20s, 30s and 40s that they should stay at home when they have so much to contribute to the workplace (and our government coffers).

That isn't capitalistic; its how macroeconomics work. You do not just work to benefit yourselves, you work to contribute to your local economy. The amount of government debt means we should try to encourage people to be taxpayers if they can. I do know that many people face a lot of problems trying to obtain paid work or even work that covers the bills, and I do think they should be given more support; not a fan of how UC claimants are treated!

Your son likes his mum to be with him, but when he is older, I hope he can grow up in a country where there is still a functioning NHS and where there are still functioning public services and where the state pension exists. Of course there is a lot of mismanagement, but I think us opting out of paid work is going to help matters. Life is to be enjoyed but we cannot run away from our responsibilities and obligations to our community

@ForestFae

DS1 was horrified when he learned most kids don’t have their mum at home - when DH and I explained most families have to have two parents working, he was upset and said he felt sorry for these kids for not having the time with their mothers

Oh c'mon.

Not horrified he doesn't have his dad at home though eh?

I'd be utterly horrified id brought my kids up to think like that. Jeeso

Some work is noble. You can work and enjoy and experience life

Honestly, @Topgub , you're best off not bothering. The answer is going to be: looking after children during all hours of the day and not just those hours outside of working hours, which is of value because it's parenting and more parenting therefore has to be more valuable. Or something.

This argument has been going on for 30 pages and nobody is going to see each other's perspective on this.

Good point. And everyone needs to go down 1 as of course top of the list is men, regardless of whether or not they're parents and whether or not they work.

I think this is a bit much.

I chose to carry on working more or less full time after having childre and I can see value in SAHPs. Research suggests that being with a primary care giver is good for children under a certain age. Children with good parental input tend to do better at school. That's not to say that WPs can't do this, but I can see the value to the children of a parent who commits themselves to do this. And creating well balanced children is a benefit to society ulimately.

I also think the they have a feminist purpose. Feminism isn't about making all women work, it's about women being free to make choices. Some will make the choice to stay home, and that is valid. someone mentioned the pressure in scandinavia to work due to great maternity and childcare provision - there is now a huge backlash on this with women very upset that they are expected to go back to the workforce when for, whatever reason, they and their families deem it better to stay at home (normally just for a little longer rather than permanently).

All that said, same as many of the SAHMs on this thread, being a SAHM would not be my choice, and it would not be what I consider "optimal" for me or my family. For many of the points that we have discussed already (role modelling, financial independence, the fact I feel I can invest in my children around my job and good quality childcare just fine). That doesn't mean I don't think SAHM have any value. I just still don't know what recognition it is they want to receive or from who or why they feel they are espeically entitled to it vs e.g. WP.

Wow. I don't think you're doing your sons any favours by raising them to think working mothers are a terrible thing and their children should be pitied. It's quite misogynistic. Their future wives are all over MN. "My DH won't let me work now that I have children." Surely it's better to teach them that families come in all shapes and sizes and neither is better nor worse.

yeah ok, @ForestFae also lost me with this. ForestFae, why isn't he horrifed his dad isn't home?

His dad works from him half the time so he is home as well - DH is also back by 4pm when he works outside of the home so it’s not like that.

But he is not horrified for the children who don't have their dad's handy 24/7?

Actually, this is probably the flip side of what I wrote above. Children growing up expecting mums to stay in their homes, and seeing that as the only "right" way for families.

Yeah, I too struggle to understand why anyone would see raising a kid to be a bit ignorant and narrow-minded about different family set-ups as something to boast about. I would be ashamed if my dc came out with a comment like that.

@adlitem

'Research suggests that being with a primary care giver is good for children under a certain age.'

Does it? I thought the research showed children having a secure attachment with a range of carers was the ideal? My children never had a pcg.

'Children with good parental input tend to do better at school.'

What does that have to do with having a sahm? Are you suggesting wp can't give good parental input? Or that they can't create well balanced children?

Feminsm is about equality. Not choice. I'm not aware of any backlash in Scandinavia?

We need women and men to do all roles for equality. Not for women to hog being sahp.

So yeah, I still don't get what it a sahm can do that a wp can't

We never said they were to be pitied - DS1 himself thinks it’s sad some kids see their mums less. That’s all. He also thinks it’s sad some mums don’t play dungeons and dragons with their kids, it’s not that deep.

I'd like to see part time working for mums and dads become normalised and facilitated in the nursery years.

I know of 2 couples who've done this, one job sharing the same job, the other both teachers doing 2.5 days. Admittedly they're in sectors that are open to this, but it's great to see them able to contribute equally on both elements.

Probably - but he knows dads work because his own dad does. He didn’t know our set up was unusual, which is why the conversation was had.

It should be available if people want it. I personally wouldn’t, but I think the option is a good thing.

I think it's sad that he thinks that. He obviously hasn't had much exposure to different types of family.

I would be ashamed if my dd decided that it was "sad" that some women didn't have careers just because that is different from what she has grown up with. I would consider that I had failed as a parent if I hadn't taught her that different people want different things and that there isn't just one right way of doing things.