Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

Has anyone managed to explain in the 28 pages of this thread what recognition is desired that doesn't already exist?

I don't think so, no.

I also think the word 'achievement' is problematic. I'm not sure how much we should be lauded for the outcomes of others. How children turn out may have little to do with how they are parented.

@rainbowmilk

Nope.

Just people trying to deny they don't judge wm when they blatantly do.

Has anyone managed to explain in the 28 pages of this thread what recognition is desired that doesn't already exist?

I think in terms of recognition, some posters have gotten closest to it by saying they’d like greater understanding represented in societal structures and employers etc of parents’ needs and pressures, reflected in e.g. affordable childcare, flexible working. Although honestly, I’m not sure that either of these things help to recognise parenthood as an achievement in itself: in Scandinavian and Nordic countries where childcare is heavily subsidised it’s essentially a societal expectation that women will return to work after having children and you’re viewed as quite odd to still be staying at home with a child older than one. You certainly wouldn’t be praised simply for being a parent, it still isn’t viewed the same as a career.

This.

Ok, I can take the point that it's a sensitive subject and it's very tricky for SAHMs to be honest about the reasons they SAH without it potentially sounding like criticism of those who work. I get that. You can't win really. I am very sensitive to this . Of course I have my reasons for SAH but these are just that - my reasons. What I can tell you is, it was never about thinking it would produce 'better outcomes.' It's not about that. And genuinely, it has never entered my head to presume an opinion in any woman who works in any shape of form. Because it's none of my business. People do what they need to do, or what they want to do.

My only issue is when women come out with this sanctimonious drivel about who has 'value' and who doesn't. It's deeply unpleasant and I can't believe people are so arrogant as to spout this kind of crap - about other mums!

I think there's a fine line in keeping this debate respectful and it gets crossed by both sides very easily.

@catculture

Plenty of people on the thread have spouted crap about careers having no value. About other mums no less!

Discussing value is literally the point of the thread

Why do self proclaimed "optimal" SAHM need affordable childcare? I thought they were confident being around to raise their children was the best thing for their kids?

And parenting really isn't a career. Does it have merit in its own right? Or course. We don't need to make it into a career for it to be valued. That's basically the opposite of recognising parenting (if the only way to recognise is by making it the thing that it's pitted against in this thread). I thought someone said this wasn't a competition......

Think part of the issue is that in the short term, childcare can be a bit thankless. You can have a really hard day looking after a baby and toddler and at the end of the day, you haven't achieved anything tangible at all and are just looking down the track at many more very similar days. The "pay-off"*, if it comes, emerges over years. Work, on the other hand, is full of pay-off: you have a task to do and you do it, whether that's changing a bed pan or negotiating a peace treaty, and you can then look back on concrete things you've achieved. And you get paid for it!

I don't think this is a societal failure though. I think it's just the nature of looking after children and the fact that people generally are more geared towards the accomplishment of tangible goals than towards appreciation of the current moment.

• I hesitate to use this term about childcare as it suggests that you should think of it in terms of the accomplishment of a task (raising a well-adjusted child, say), whereas I think much of the joy of it comes from appreciation of the time spent for itself and the outcome is almost incidental.

But I have worked, obviously - and when I did I'm pretty certain I was exactly the same person with the same 'value.' Everyone has value - it's not related to a pay scale! I used to spend my time dealing with other families and children. These days I focus on my own. My husband doesn't see himself as 'valued' by his job titles or the money he earns. He doesn't see mothers with their children as 'lesser value' - quite the opposite! I don't know how anyone could think like that

@catculture

You're conflating roles with people

Roles do not all hold the same value. Some are valued more than others. Some are valued financially, Some not

All mothers are with their children most of the time

Being with them a few more hours is not more valuable

Unless you think your oh has less than value as a parent?

Value also strikes me as being in the eye of the beholder.

Some people only value people who have careers. Other's think women's real value is at home. I work, and I've sometimes got the feeling that people think I ought to have stayed home to "raise" my children, rather than pursuing a career. Like it's some vanity project that gets in the way of my true value as a mother. This is compounded by the fact I work from home so people think I do nothing and it's not a "real" job. It's frustrating.

Maybe the reality is that society values men (and their jobs), and not so much women.

@adlitem

Absolutely.

Always OK for men to work. Can't expect them to be the ones valuing being a sahp

"All mothers are with their children most of the time"

This is not true though.

When I had my first, I found out a lady opposite was due on the same day as me. We became great friends and were in the same NCT. Still are great friends and she's one of the women I respect most in this world. She's a great mum, but she did it very differently to me. She had a nanny from day one. She went back to work when her baby was six months. She is an incredibly successful in a corporate-type role and she used to be out the house at 7 and never home before 7. She would be frequently overseas . Her work also involved a lot of evenings out and that type of thing.

She was not with her children 'most if the time.' She would be the first to admit that. Her nanny did that for her and was paid very well for it. My friend did miss things. Like her baby's first steps. She never took them for haircuts, rarely did the school run - all kinds of the grunt work that I did every day. But she is still a fantastic mum. This is because she's an inspiring, kind individual with self-respect and respect for others. She earns mega-bucks, but there is no arrogance about her. In the end, her husband became a SAHD (more or less). This was after the third or fourth child. But, what I'm saying is, she was a very different parent 'style' to me, yet we both respect each other and our families are great friends to this day.

@catculture

Would you judge a man for being out of the house 7 to 7?

For going back to work at 6 months and missing the 'grunt' work?

I can change it from all to all except some very few exceptions?

yet we both respect each other

I find this to be mostly the case in real life. One of my very good friends is a SAHM, it is absolutely what works best for her life circumstances, which are very different to mine, and we both totally understand where each other is coming from.

Without that extra context and understanding on here, debate can be very polarised. I guess it's understandable on an anonymous forum, but it's worth bearing in mind real life is usually different.

TopGub - did you read my post? I have the highest respect for my friend because she is one if the most lovely people I know. Her family set-up and parenting style was different times mine, but that's absolutely fine. People have to be true to themselves. I couldn't have done what she has done. She couldn't have done what I have done. But we're great friends and there is genuinely no judgement from either side - never has been.

As for my husband, yes I respect him for all he does and his role in the family. I respect the fact he has worked hard to provide our lifestyle and enable me to SAHM. He respects my role.

I respect any working mum. Why wouldn't I? As long as they are decent people, they will be great parents.

@catculture

I did read your post

You ignored most of what I had said in favour of a lengthy reply about the amount of time 1 mum you know spends with her kids

I can only presume that's because you think spending as much time as possible with them is the ideal.

It doesn't really negate the point I was making

Indeed. I have been both and I don't care what other women do and I don't see that the DC are that much affected or improved either way, generally. I will say that speaking only for myself I find work easier because it is linear and there is a clear progression or goals. Whereas with DC you can do everything right and it can still go wrong in an instant.

As the OP hasn't clarified we won't know what she means by her post.

TopGub - you are like a dog with a bone trying to create an argument out of thin air.

And yes, I agree in real life, women don't go around projecting all kinds of value judgements about mums who work or mums who don't or who is part-time. It's just a non issue. I've met hundreds of mums though my kids over the years and this kind of just never comes up. Nobody is asking for validation about anything.

To be honest if you think looking after kids is thankless then this is not the hardest care work you have done. Having children comes with a lot of social acceptance and approval. Unlike caring for elderly and adults. And with the elderly ends very sadly. At least with the majority of kids care your have their future to look forward to.

I saw a 26 year old on IG day have baby was biggest achievement but it's seem she hasn't don't anything else apart from work and why would she. I didn't take on heavier caring roles in my family til late 20's. Know many people post 30 that are taking on dual caring roles in the family of children and parents and suspect they agree with their parents it's getting harder and having more restrictions over them( car, climbing ladder etc) where as their child has social epections if learning that are reinforced by school and playgroups.

I don't think getting pregnant is easy for everyone many people try for years, some it happens totally ramdonly when given up. I know some even with IVF etc it will never happen and women telling them it's easy seem to not even get how fortunate they are.

@catculture I guess the point is you are pointing out stuff that noone would say about a man. You say she got her nanny to be with her baby. What about the dad? Wasn't it him too? I know you were being complimentary about your friend, and pointing our not all mothers are with their babies, but it is a reflection on who is seen as the primary parent in society that we (me included) make these observations about women specifically.

When will we ask this question of men? And, for the record, I don't think that having children is an 'achievement'.

Yes, I wonder when a man will be along complaining he doesn't get recognition for being a dad....