Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

The OP has had difficult births and I think her muddled post was a cry for help.

I agree with this.

@catculture

So why is it such a common theme online for sahm to whine about how under valued they are?

I've been judged irl more than once for working

I once had a woman tell me she was glad I had made the right decision to invest in my children because she mistakenly presumed I was a sahm.

I dont think anyone asked my dh how long he was taking off work after the kids were born or if he was thinking about going back to work at all.

No one has asked him who is looking after the kids while he is at work

Yes, I totally agree that women are held to task over this kind of thing in a way men are not.

Another observation - when men (well at least
men like my husband and his friends) get together, the talk is all about work. If it's not that, it's hobbles and sports they do - most of which are competitive.

For instance, my husband went out with some friends the other week and one has recently become a dad again. I asked DH whether the baby was a boy or a girl - he said he didn't know! I said, how can you not have asked him that. He said it just didn't come up.

When I get together with my friends, the conversation tends to be about the kids or more personal things, straight off. If the talk turns to work, it's usually about some interpersonal problem there or similar. Women rarely spout off about their work "achievements' on the way men do. I think this is because women's identities are much broader. I think this is a good thing, really, because I find the way men go on sometimes very boring.

TopGub - what do you mean, 'whining about being undervalued?' What does this even mean?

When I was a child psychotherapist, then that was my main focus and it was what it was. I didn't feel any more valued than now,. I'm exactly the same person. It's just a different phases of life. Maybe one day, I'll start seeing clients again. It will hardly be a great earth- shattering validation. As if anyone cares. People are too wrapped up in their own business

Agree @catculture . My view is that it's unlikely to be women who get women equality. It's going to be men. By valuing women, treating them equally, and taking part in the parts of society that are viewed as women's jobs (and often much lower "value"). As much as that pains me to say!

When I get together with my friends, the conversation tends to be about the kids or more personal things, straight off. If the talk turns to work, it's usually about some interpersonal problem there or similar. Women rarely spout off about their work "achievements' on the way men do. I think this is because women's identities are much broader. I think this is a good thing, really, because I find the way men go on sometimes very boring.

It's funny that you say that women tend to have much broader conversations because their identities are broader. I find the talk about kids boring for the same reason you find the way men go on boring. I don't have kids and so have little to contribute to the conversation. I've often been out with my female friends who are parents and realised I've said almost nothing in two hours. At least with work and hobbies, others can join in as well.

I have kids and find convo about them boring. I would much prefer to talk about work, books, the arts....

@catculture

I mean that very often you'll see sahm say that they are undervalued or that no one values them

Its been said a few times on this thread alone

Topgub · Today 12:31

"I mean that very often you'll see sahm say that they are undervalued or that no one values them

Its been said a few times on this thread alone"

Well that's probably because you have explicitly stated that SAH is a role that you don't think has any value!

What responses do you expect when you come out with statements like that?

But in real life, how you value yourself comes from within. This is true whatever you find yourself doing.

@catculture

No its often said unprovoked and has been on this thread

Why do sahm in particular need to feel valued so much?

My only issue is when women come out with this sanctimonious drivel about who has 'value' and who doesn't. It's deeply unpleasant and I can't believe people are so arrogant as to spout this kind of crap - about other mums!

And this is why people react on threads like this because that's exactly what happens.

When people are talking about their way being the optimal way but don't caveat that with 'optimal for us' then it pisses people off....and rightly so.

I can only speak for myself, but this 'being valued' concept has never crossed my mind. As long as my family value me, what anyone else thinks is irrelevant.

I must say TopGub, I don't meet people like you in real life who declare which roles are to be valued and which are not.

Would you tell a SAHM in real life to her face that her role is of not value?

Why not just think about people as individuals? Maybe if you came and spent some time in my home - observed our routines and how we live, met my husband and saw the whole set up - then you would realise that your concept of 'value' is too narrow?

I find any conversations that are dominated by a ‘look at my achievements’ theme boring. If the same topic is lingered on for too long I also find it boring whether it is about work, kids, sports, holidays etc. I like conversations to be multi faceted and flowing but too often it’s very one sided, either by dominant personalities or by people who never think to ask anything of anyone else. The other day I was volunteering with three other people. We were together most of the day and not one person asked me anything about myself, my opinion, if I was working/not working, if I had kids or not, nothing. I kept the conversation going by asking questions and listening with genuine interest to their replies but no-one thought to reciprocate, even through politeness. There were often long silences as I ran out of things to say.

Where I live just now, the conversation often is about work, work stress, all thing related to work. I visited where I came from a few weeks back to hang out with the old gang and work was barely mentioned, even though the majority worked. I’ve been trying to put a finger on why and could only come up with it’s how folk identify themselves.

Like someone said upthread, the male conversations my DH has with his sporting peers is all about sport and even he is bored by it, but rarely about work except in passing, so by the same rationale, these guys identify through their sporting achievements.

Gone a bit off thread there, sorry!

@catculture

Its literally the topic of the thread discussion

Why arent you asking the lots of of people who are saying careers have no value why they think that?

If a sahm said that her role should be valued or valued more id probably ask why they thought that and share my own opinion.

Why not?

Why on earth would I need to spend time in your home to understand your role?

If you think the role has value, thats great. I dont

Why would the poster be expected to value the role if they are neither the child or the partner of the SAHP? Any value attached to the role is at a personal not a societal level, and benefits other women not at all.

The OP wasn't even talking about SAHMs. She was talking about having "having children" versus "career". Many women do both.

Some posters are obsessed (for reasons only they know) with banging on about "We'll I'm not a SAHM therefore NO! I declare it has no value". It's bizarre reading and only happens on MN.

I don't feel the need to 'value' anyone else's role in life. I couldn't give a monkeys, frankly. So, if you need to ascribe 'value' to my role - ask yourself what that says about you. It smacks of bitterness and insecurity. Otherwise, I can't imagine why you would even care.

@catculture

Why do you need to resort to accusations of insecurities and bitterness?

What would I have to be insecure or bitter about?

I dont care but that is opinion on the role.

Should I lie?

It came up because lots of people scoffed at the idea of a career having value and of course being a mother was worth more.

Ignoring, as you say, that most women do both

The difference is between me and you TipGub, I would never go on an anonymous forum and declare that certain jobs or other peoples roles in life have no value - even if that was my opinion. Because that would make me sound like a sanctimonious t**t. It is not for me to decide what has value and what doesn't. And it's not for you to declare either.

@catculture

But you do think its ok to say I must be insecure or bitter?

Implying my choices are less valid?

Interesting

You’ve said yourself multiple times a SAHM has no value according to you, so don’t try to play victim.

@ForestFae

I'm not. If tlshe thinks is should be insecure ir bitter for not being a sahm she's entitled to that opinion

But she can't have it both ways.

I don't 'need' to ascribe value to your role. If you have a role that's benefits me it is likely I would value it as a response to that benefit.
If you have a role that doesn't, then I wouldn't.
Not sure how you stretch that to assume bitterness and insecurity. I've been a SAHM and a working one. Children now adults. I've no skin in the game, just an opinion, like everyone else on the thread.

Having children isn’t an achievement at all. In fact, I firmly believe that some people should be discouraged, or even stopped, from having them. The world does not need another ignorant, violent chav.

The real achievement is raising kids who are happy, kind, and well-mannered. For example, I know a woman who raised her son on her own, with no money and no support at all. He is a lovely boy - polite, charming, devoted to his girlfriend, etc. That was an achievement.

I never learned to drive. Didn't go to Uni. I once moaned to my mum that I can't 'do anything' and she reminded me that I'm a mother. I said any fool can do THAT. Now I'm older, however.. my kids are all grown up & all amazing (ok, I'm biased) but they ARE!
I think I did a pretty good job & have stopped being hard on myself. :-)