Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

I do think you’re wrong.

An example of you twisting things is taking someone talking about “help with childcare” to mean “any interaction with another human being”. You know that’s not what it means. I know that’s not what it means. The poster knows that’s not what it means.

This is why I find you tiresome and difficult to have a sensible discussion with. You focus on semantics instead of what was being said.

As for bad faith questions, repeatedly questioning why my DH works when it’s obvious the answer is because someone has to in order to maintain an income would be one example.

@topgub. No. No father.

@ForestFae

Except I'm not insecure. And you clearly do think that your values are better than others. You've tried more than once to get a rise by saying I should feel guilty, dont see kids enough (despite knowing nothing about when I see them) are raising them in a sub optimal way.

If the pp had said help with childcare that would be fair enough. But they didn't. They said without external help. Not the same

I didnt repeatedly ask why your dh worked. I asked why you were critical of wp but not your oh. You couldn't answer.

I'm not fussed if you find me tiresome. I find you incredibly hypocritical. And a bit like toddler stamping their feet when they can't get their own way

Everyone chooses the values they think are best, that’s how people make choices. You know full well what was meant by what they said, but instead you’re arguing semantics rather than the actual point. And I did answer - I said because one person has to work, and it’s different leaving a child with a parent than with a third party. I said this several times. You just ask the same thing and make circular arguments because you don’t have an actual point.

Everyone chooses the values they think are best, that’s how people make choices. You know full well what was meant by what they said, but instead you’re arguing semantics rather than the cry

I've never considered parenting remotely hard or challenging. I believe that's a modern construct. They're born. You feed them and talk to them and they're nice people to be around and they learn and you do things as a family. That's just life. Living. It doesn't take concentration, training or the application of skill. It's natural. You just... live.

It's not an achievement if you cook a meal or hoover a room. That's a normal expectation.

I am proud when people praise my work or I achieve work success because it actually took work. It didn't just happen naturally. Putting a wash on or talking to your kids isn't work. It's nice normal life. It shouldn't even feel like work.

@ForestFae

If I had known they had meant nursery as opposed to what they actually said which was no external help then I would have made a different point.

I think its easier for you to lash out than counter the points I've made. There really should be a name for it. There probably is.

Of course people make choices based on what they think is best. That often means they think other choices are inferior. Its disingenuous to say other wise

I was fairly reasonable with you until relatively recently, when you insisted on carrying on with being disingenuous.

Other peoples choices are not an attack on yours. And it’s arrogant and self centred to think so.

@ForestFae

Sure

the thank you get is from your children being happy, healthy, safe, successful, loving, kind, reliable, honest.
i'd rather that than some fake plaudit from a career, where i am replaceable with someone much cheaper at the blink of an eye.
its a standard thing, cos that's the reality of all living things, born, create, nurture, die. i dont see dragonflies or wildebeest or a daffodil moaning 'where's my praise for keeping this mini-me alive'!!!

and yes, i am a career woman and a mother before anyone shoots me down in flames!

Thats your own insecurity talking, no one else. If I say I value the role of a SAHM and I see it as preferable to work, that’s not an attack on you. That’s me talking bout my values

Tbf your earlier posts did come across as your way being the right way and the rest of us being wrong......that's why you got people's backs up.
If you'd have phrased this way in the first place I don't think you would have got nearly as much outrage.

@brookstar

Just to be clear, I'm not outraged and I dont feel attacked. Nor do I believe forestfae was merely discussing her own choices.

They were very clearly implying working was an inferior choice for everyone (except men)

Its ok to disagree with views, even if you're not outraged by them or taking them as a personal attack.

Its on to say, nah. You're chatting shit.

Hmmm... I have a law degree and have published 3 books ( not bestsellers or well known but popular in their own niche). Still didn't find that as hard or challenging as parenting in the teen and YA stage during a pandemic. I think it took a considerable application of skill, patience and determination. And I am not talking about cooking or hoovering.

Perhaps children and life circumstances are different and some are more challenging than others?

I think my way is better which is why I chose it, but that doesn’t mean I think everyone else’s way is terrible. I think a lot of things are like this - if I choose to paint my walls purple, then yes I like that colour best but it doesn’t mean I think everyone who chose green has bad taste. You can choose what you think is the best option without it being a direct attack on anyone else - I didn’t choose to be a SAHM to spite working parents, I never even gave them a thought I just did what was best for us.

It should be possible on a forum such as this for someone to say they value the role of a SAHM, without it being interpreted as an attack on women who go to work. Everything has value and it's not a competition. I don't interpret someone saying they value their job as an attack on the fact I don't have a job! I'm glad they enjoy their job. But it's not my job or my life if my kids so how is it relevant to me? I have no view on 'women who work' because that could mean literally anything and anyway, it's not my concern. In other circumstances or another marriage, I could be working myself. So what?

@catculture

Well that depends on why or how they value the sahm role doesn't it

No ones ever said liking purple is something to be guilty about.

Why does it matter why someone else values the role? I want to be with my kids and raise them, you’ll come back with “working parents raise their kid too” when it’s clear that what is meant by that is I want to be doing the day in day out, majority of it. You’re just looking for a fight at this point.

Well, biologically most people can become parents. That in itself isn't an achievement. I also think there's rather a lot of celebrations for - esepcialyl impending - parenthood these days. In a social context I often see family achievements celebrated, where as work ones (especially for women) aren't really talked about. I find that if you open up with what you find tough most people are really supportive.I also often hear women praising each other for their mothering, so I am not sure there is not any recognition at all.

Parenthood isn't generally well recognised in terms of the effort and drugery involved, but I am not sure what you want that you aren't getting? I don't get "well done"s for going to work every day. I get recognised for performance that is good, or exceptional acheivements, but I think to a large extent that's the same are parenthood where you don't get recognised for the day to day stuff, but are for bigger family milestones and achievements.

@ForestFae

And you're not? You keep responding to me.

Youre backtracking from your previous comments.

If you value the sahm role because you think its 'optimal' then it's obvious that you think not being one isn't optimal. If you want to be with your kids all day every day you use think that has a benefit over not doing it

I dont think being a sahm has any particular value because I don't think it has any benefits

You are literally offended that I think being with my kids is the best way to raise them - read that back. There is nothing weird about a mother thinking the best thing she can do for her kids is to spend time raising them daily.

That doesn’t mean I think your way is shit. Do I think it’s “the best” way? No. But Rhys for you to choose for yourself. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@ForestFae

I'm not offended. I disagree with your views. Not the same.

I agree. But @ForestFae lost that moral high ground with her "enjoy seeing your kids on the weekend lol" comment about ten pages ago.

Has anyone managed to explain in the 28 pages of this thread what recognition is desired that doesn't already exist?

TopGub - "I dont think being a sahm has any particular value because I don't think it has any benefits"

So there you go. You feel entitled to say that. Yet you get offended if anyone dares to admit they SAH because they think it's better for their children in their given context.

You are not in a position to assign value to anyone or anything. If you feel you would have no value as a SAHM - then that's up to you. But it's incredibly arrogant to make the statement you have above. Not to mention misogynistic.