Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

Yes you have, you’ve said things like I want to live in the past when I’ve said we should have built upon the positives. So technology isn’t all bad and I’ve never said it is - things like solar and wind power are amazing for example.

what claims do you want me to evidence?

@ForestFae

Any of them

Instead of going in the huff and having wee temper tantrums when you cant come up with a counter point.

Specifically, what claims? You’re very good at making general, vague statements but when asked to actually specify and focus, you can’t do it, because you don’t have an argument.

As most people have said, most people can have a child so it’s not an achievement and you don’t do it for the thanks. Who is going to thank you? DS is 13 now and we receive comments alllll the time about how great he is so surely that’s all the acknowledgement we need?

You didn't evidence your claim that having more children doesn't affect equality outcomes for women

Or that your view of society is 'shit'

Or that your way of raising kids is optimal

You can use fake digital backgrounds in zoom calls that don’t allow people to see your home at all.

You can’t prove a negative. If you think that, the burden of proof is on you to do so.

Society being shit is an opinion, unsure how you want me to prove my opinion. Same with raising kids as everyone will value different things.

I think the opposite. I have a successful career and a happy marriage but no kids and it often feels as if people are writing me off as a sad case - as if no matter what a woman achieves, if she’s not a mother, she’s a failure. I remember one incident where a woman said to me ‘Oh if I didn’t have children I could have a career like yours’ totally ignoring the years of effort, the exams, all the long hours. I said: ‘There’s a bit more to it than just sitting there not giving birth.’ I also get people assuming I decided not to have kids because I’m a heartless career bitch, when they know nothing about my personal circumstances.

It’s a false equivalence.

However, I do think that men perceived as good fathers are recognised more widely than women who are perceived as good mothers. The bar for men is low, etc.

By whom? I think the kind of people who think along these lines tends more (but not exclusively) to the older generation. If anyone ever said "she's only ever been a SAHM" to me, that would be a short engagement with them.

I've seen you on threads before under another name - I too have nc recently.
Just wanted to say I agree with every word you said there. My mother was not in the same league as yours, but she too took the congratulations and praise for having a successful child when in fact I did it despite her, not with her help.
It does seem that all women have to do is give birth in order to be placed on a pedestal forever more.

Is anyone else hoping that forestfae's children all discover the joys of tech, love island, plastic tat and designer clothing soon? Oh and go on to have one of those dreadful "made up" jobs?

Or am I just being an evil bitch.

What a nasty unkind comment. I could say something similar about your heartfelt tale you decided to share but I’ll be the bigger person.

Honestly my MIL has very similar views to you (she is orthodox jewish and also identifies as an eco hippie), and my DH works for an investment bank in middle management! They do still have a good relationship, things like that do happen!

Its not the end of the world.

Thats an interesting juxtaposition! I’m glad they still get along.

There’s a reason that it says a ‘loved mother’ on gravestones and not Manager or something about a person’s career! Bringing up happy healthy children is the biggest achievement a person can have (and often the hardest!)

Yes. People’s bosses don’t usually pay for their headstones. Their families do.

People probably wouldn't be in contact with their bosses a good 20 years after retirement (hopefully one passes 20 years after retirement). Or their bosses are probably in their graves. thats the thing, unless you are an ex prime minister or founded your own multi-national corporation (or even a successful family business), few careers matter after you retired. Even if you were a successful doctor, there would be other successful younger doctors. I once read 'there are many eligible candidates to be CFO of a FTSE company (esp in today's globalized world, why does that person even have to come from the UK), but only 1 person can be Sophia's mummy!

However, if Sophia's mummy builds up her entire identity around Sophia, I am not sure how that would help Sophia. Sophia needs more than love and kisses, she needs guidance and resources. No child likes having limited resources and in today's world,2 incomes are often needed for a decent living.

It has been reported in stats that the daughters of working mothers earn more in later life. I am grateful that my mum always worked when I was growing up, its the reason why i have zero student loans and studied in the UK (I am from another country). This impacts my life even today.

“No child likes having limited resources” there are plenty of ways to be happy without an excess of money. And as for daughters of working mothers earning more, so what? That says nothing about happiness. My mum worked very part time growing up and was mainly a SAHM. I had a wonderful idyllic childhood in the countryside with her and I’m very grateful for it. We’re still close even as adults and she spends time with me and my own dc, we raise the kids very much as a family. So you almost certainly earn more than me, but you sound like you’re happy with your life and Im happy with mine so not sure what that’s supposed to prove either way.

I'm really sad for you that you have had the opportunity of having your own children cruelly taken from you. That must be so hard.

However, I think you may have mistaken the deification you say your mother received as down to the status of motherhood. Whereas in fact it's more likely to be her manipulative nature and narcissistic traits. She worked really hard to have the narcissistic supply from all those around her, validating her appalling choices and her abuse of her own child. However, not all mothers receive that kind of validation, and if she had not been a mother she still would have surrounded herself with those who justified her manipulation and abuse.

I think in general people are impressed with those who've qualified as lawyers and have other skills like you do. I admit I do get a card and chocolates every year for Mother's Day, but I still cook an awful lot of meals and wash an awful lot of pants, so it's not all party, party, party. I'm not complaining as I chose to be a mother but I do think it's taken for granted in a way that Disney dads who occasionally take the kids to the park, aren't.

Those people who make those disgusting comments about you not being mature because you don't have children are just arseholes. They're the kind of people who also look down on SAHM's and would say they don't contribute to society. Or who would have a bitch at anyone who didn't live their lives in exactly the way they do, and they do this to big up themselves. You see it all the time on MN. But it reflects badly on them, not you. They deserve to have a mirror shown up to their unpleasantness.

The reason it says that on a gravestone is that the inscriptions are commissioned by the family and they view the person in terms of their relationship to them. Nothing to do with achievement.

@ForestFae say what you want. I don't care. My take isn't meant to be heartfelt. I'm not looking for sympathy or understanding. I'm just sharing. Hopefully not annoying anyone but you 😂

I've asked,y family to say "if you see an emaciated bag of bones with sharp teeth hanging around this grave, please stab it quick before she comes back"

Gravestones don’t include words like that because of some universal truth that parenting is the biggest achievement, it’s because it’s what you write on headstones. Bosses don’t pay for them and it’s frowned upon for family members to write “mediocre mum” on them.

Kind of like how every funeral sings the praises of the deceased even though some of them must’ve been arseholes.

@thesurrealist Thank you for the kind words x