Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

@ForestFae

I think attitudes to kids here are fine, mostly

Encouraging 3/4/5 kids is not a good thing

Mothers shouldn’t have to sacrifice their maternity leave so fathers can get more paternity though. It should be a separate thing for men to have more leave. That’s the point I’m making.

And this is one of the reasons why shared parental leave has such a dismal uptake .... the idea that women are sacrificing maternity leave rather than taking shared paternal leave.

I don’t have an issue with that either. I’ve told off kids that aren’t mine when they’ve been unreasonable (not just making a noise in public, I mean stuff like picking on another child or damaging objects in a shop). I also think people in the UK are weird about strangers touching their children. A toddler, probably about 12-18 months once ran and tripped right in front of me and burst into tears. I instinctively helped them up and picked them up - I had my own 3DC with me so I clearly wasn’t a weirdo in the park for no reason - and went to look for their parents, and their mum was clearly put out that I’d helped her child up. Which I think is really odd as if one of my kids fell over and cried, and I was either with my other kids or unable to get to them for whatever reason, I’d hope someone would comfort them rather than just leave them. I’d actually be quite annoyed if no one did.

the uk attitude towards kids and families is really cold and I don’t like it.

There’s nothing wrong with large families and an ageing population helps no one. Small, atomised families serves only corporations.

Well you would be - you’d have to give up some of your maternity leave. Which isn’t something most women want to do. It’s not a crime to want to spend time with your kids.

@ForestFae I agree with you. I was not raised in England and find the attitude strange. But it is the culture and I can see that how strangers react is part of the whole culture.

Mothers shouldn’t have to sacrifice their maternity leave so fathers can get more paternity though. It should be a separate thing for men to have more leave. That’s the point I’m making.

Why? It makes sense that mothers should get longer because they're the ones recovering from childbirth. But why does the partner need a long time off too? The world can't stop when you have a baby. It doesn't take two people to be at home for an extended length of time. The point of sharing leave is for those mothers who want or need to go back to work while their child is still really little, who otherwise might have had to give up their jobs or lose their minds.

I’ve found the opposite.

I have a successful career plus have a masters in another related area.

Pre kids people asked about how work was going and about the job but now all anyone asks me is how the DC are!

@ForestFae

Of course there's something wrong with large families

Its bad for the environment.

That’s what I’m trying to describe when I say England is not child friendly. It’s hard to put into words, but I’m glad you get what I mean. I have one foreign parent and my DH is Indian, so perhaps that’s why this attitude seems quite alien to both of us as we’ve been raised with cultural influences from outside the uk.

Ecofascist Malthusian nonsense. Overconsumption is the issue, not overpopulation. 100 people cause 70% of the emissions, for example. We need to radically restructure society. Number of people is not the problem, it’s consumption.

Recovery from birth, men also deserve to bind with their babies and should take some of the load of caring for small newborns when they don’t sleep well.

@ForestFae

But we're not.

So more people means more overconsumption.

Studies also show that the less children women have the more equal the society is

Well you would be - you’d have to give up some of your maternity leave. Which isn’t something most women want to do. It’s not a crime to want to spend time with your kids.

I've not said it is a crime to want to spend time with your kids. What an odd assumption to make.

I'm taking about the language which is used when discussing shared parental leave. Using the word sacrifice isn't helping anyone.

Shared parental leave isn't about women sacrificing something, it's about equality and giving birth mum and dad the opportunity to take time off work to contribute to the raising of their child it it's first year. It should be a good thing!

@ForestFae I read the book Watching the English. It helped me understand the cultural nuances far better.
Some other cultures are far more communal. Normal life involves communicating with strangers and their children, getting involved by talking to people on buses, playing with random children on long bus journeys, and telling children off who are misbehaving.
In England, the children are "owned" by their parents, but especially by their mums. As private property, other people do not get involved unless invited or given permission to do so. Because they are private property, strangers get annoyed if they cause them annoyance with noise or other behaviour.
This is an over-generalisation I know. But generally, it is true.

Look at the number of people who say on Mumsnet they will not even answer the door if someone knocks or how awful it is if a neighbour assumes they will take in a parcel being delivered and keep it until they get home. It is all about privacy.

Right, but we can as a society change that, and that’s what we should be focusing on.

I bet by equal, it means career lol. Not. Everyone. Wants. That. Not everyone even holds it up as an ideal.

It needs to be about shared parental leave. If we are honest if women still got up to a year's maternity leave and men got the same, many men would just be out all day on bicycles, playing football or online playing games.
Making it shared means that parents can decide for themselves who is home with the baby.

@ForestFae

No, just equal.

Ya know equal rights, access to education and health care. Access to abortion. Able to have a career if they want one. Able to hold position of power.

I’m always grateful to a random woman I don’t know who I met on a train once. DS1 was about two and was upset over something and nothing I did was calming him, and this woman had 3 kids with her. She said to one of her boys “go show that little boy your Batman toy” and he did and DS stopped crying and ended up playing nicely with her sons. I was so thankful, yet this rarely happens. I always try to be that parent to others but I’m also wary of coming over as annoying or weird as you say, people are quite funny about it sometimes.

I’ll have a look for that book. I had no idea people were offended by taking in parcels lol! I’ve done it loads, I’m a SAHM so if I’m in it’s no trouble, again seems bizarre to me that someone would be upset by that.

Recovery from birth, men also deserve to bind with their babies and should take some of the load of caring for small newborns when they don’t sleep well.

Fathers/partners don't need months off work to bond with their babies, and as long as they aren't working 24hrs a day 7 days a week, there is no excuse for them to not do their fair share after work and on their days off.

I agree that even when working men should take on the duties when they’re home but I had a lot of disagreement when I said that should include night feeds!

Having children doesn’t inhibit your access to those things. Correlation and causation are two separate issues

I agree it's hard work and the toughest thing I've done. The reason noone recognises you for it is because they don't need to. You are basically an unpaid slave on call to your children 24/7. In a job, they give out praise, promotions, awards etc to try and stop the good people from moving elsewhere. As a mother you can't move elsewhere - first because of the biological bond with your children and second because of the strong disapproval you would get from society.

@ForestFae

Research says other wise

Research doesn’t say it’s caused by having kids. It’s more that in “unequal” societies, people tend to have larger families. Not that larger families cause equality or inhibit access to healthcare.