Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

Having children and sacrificing a career is an incredible achievement. I couldn't have done it and outsourced within weeks.

Because if you make your children your whole life and whole identity, its a but if a kicker to realise no one else really cares and that it really didn't make any difference to the outcome.

Thats why sahm get so annoyed about perceived lack of value from others.

Wow, that's a very good point actually. I hadn't quite thought of it like that. I mean, obviously it's absolutely fine to be either SAHM or WOHM, but if you're a real SAHM evangelist who bangs on about how sad it is that WOHM farm their kids out etc, it must be very galling if your dc don't turn out to be superior to or happier than those of your WOHM acquaintances.

SAHMs don’t make our children our whole identity. Lots of people define themselves by what they do for a job though, which is weird.

@ForestFae

Some definitely do.

Some definitely think it's necessary to raise kids

Its not

Yes, Elle Woods was my spirit animal 😆

Sorry, that was another conversation

I don’t think anyone thinks it’s necessary, people generally choose the option they think is better. That doesn’t mean there aren’t other options that are passable and it doesn’t mean someone’s making it their identity.

SAHMs don’t make our children our whole identity.

Not generally, but some do. And yes, some people do define themselves by their job. I definitely do (very typical of people in my line of work). My children aren't my identity at all - they are their own people and I am my own person. That doesn't mean I love them any less!

I think either defining yourself by your children or your career is pretty odd tbh. I mean it’s not odd as in unheard of, people do it, but I can’t get my head around it. Surely those things are just part of someone’s identity. We’re all many different things, and trying to fit into a box seems a waste of time.

I'm curious. How would you measure success as a mother/parent? Does it start from birth? Is birthing "naturally" a success and an emergency c-section a failure? Are you more successful if you breastfeed than if you bottle-feed? Are you failing if you send your toddler to nursery rather than keep them at home until school-age? Are you more successful if your child gets all A* at A-Level, and less successful if they get all Cs?

I think having children is hard enough and competitive enough without making it something other people should judge you on to praise you for like a career.

I read it as it should be valued more, not ranked and graded - things like accommodations from employers, more reasonably priced venues for families and so on?

I can see why in certain jobs people would define themselves by it. If you are a Church Minister it will for most be identity as much as a job.

That’s a very specific example and yes I can understand why someone would in that case as well. Most people aren’t church ministers though.

@ForestFae

Whats the difference between passable and better? In terms of outcomes?

How should parenting be valued more? What does that look like?

I think either defining yourself by your children or your career is pretty odd tbh. I mean it’s not odd as in unheard of, people do it, but I can’t get my head around it. Surely those things are just part of someone’s identity. We’re all many different things, and trying to fit into a box seems a waste of time.

Yes, they are parts of your identity. But my job is a large part of who I am. I chose my career when I was 12 and I'm now 50. I feel like there's a lot of crossover between my job and what I'm like as a person in general. I'm not sure that's so true of me being a mother (even though I love being one).

I read it as it should be valued more, not ranked and graded - things like accommodations from employers, more reasonably priced venues for families and so on?

But that already happens. And how is that comparable to a career, though? Brain surgeons don't get flexi-time for being brain surgeons. Lawyers don't get cheaper group tickets for theme parks. Parents get a lot that non-parents don't get. They're not invisible members of society. They're very much acknowledged. Being a parents and having a career and completely different things.

It depends how you’re defining success doesnt it? Anyone who’s kids have a reasonably happy life is technically successful. But some people have specific priorities and values they wish to pass on - for example, if one of my kids had no respect for the environment and littered, used plastic irresponsibly and didn’t recycle, I would consider that a failure on my part. Would other people if it were their dc? Maybe not. That’s just an example, what I’m trying to say is people have different values and what’s important to one person when raising their kids isn’t to another.

More flexibility in employment, more support for mothers having just given birth (lactation consultants on the NHS for those who wish to bf is an example of this), longer paternity leave (two weeks is a bloody joke, especially if the woman had a cesarean), and kids being included in normal life and valued - so many people seem to think kids should be seen and not heard, confined to clsssrooms and nurseries and out of sight. See threads about people complaining about kids on transport for an example of what I mean - kids aren’t seen as just a normal part of society, they should be. Just a few pointers off the top of my head, obviously there’s more.

I agree with this.

I have been cultivating my career and working on acquiring the academic qualifications, experience and skillsets since school, particularly where odds are stacked against women, much more so when I started out. The trajectory is not straight and often involves side-ways moves, especially once children arrive on the scene. I feel I 'own' my career much more than my dcs, who are their own persons and are on loan to me as their parent to develop to independence and adulthood.

I try hard to be a good parent to my dcs, but it has been clear since they were babies that there is so much I cannot control with the best will in the world. My career is far more within my control and more directly proportional to the effort I put in.

@ForestFae

I dont think society thinks children should be seen and not heard and I dont know what you mean by confining them in schools.

Flexible employment, parental leave and bf cons all exist already

@ForestFae Maternity leave can be split between the mother and father. He does not only have to have two weeks off on paternity leave.

Compare the attitude towards children in the UK to the attitude towards children in countries where people typically have 3/4/5 children. The latter definitely is warmer and more receptive to children being out in public and behaving like normal children. Here, if your child dares cry on a train (as babies and toddlers sometimes do, it’s normal) youll get disgusted looks from people as if you’ve just taken a crap on the floor or something. It’s not like that in countries where family life is prized.

Not enough and not in enough quantities. Normal births don’t get lactation consultants on the NHS for example, only premature births do. It should be available to everyone who wants it.

Mothers shouldn’t have to sacrifice their maternity leave so fathers can get more paternity though. It should be a separate thing for men to have more leave. That’s the point I’m making.

@ForestFae In countries where people are accepting of children crying, strangers are also more involved in telling mothers what they are doing wrong or telling children off. Children are not seen as private property belonging to the mother and dad, but as public beings who everyone has a right to communicate with.
In those societies, a mother complaining about a stranger who is a woman talking to her toddler without the mother's permission would be thought of as very strange.
In Britain a lot of mothers think no one else has a right to tell their child off in public or to for example stroke a babies cheek who is a stranger.
Children are seen very differently in Britain by both mothers and strangers.
You simply do not get societies where everyone is indulgent of children they do not know, but are not allowed to interact with them without the permission of the mother. You are asking for the impossible.

I can see why in certain jobs people would define themselves by it. If you are a Church Minister it will for most be identity as much as a job.

Some job really are a part of someone's identity.
Im a university academic.... it's very much a part of my identity because I put some much of 'me' into it. So when I'm evaluated, whether that be via students or peers, it feels very personal.

@ForestFae I think a chunk of leave that can be split is better. Some women want to get back to work quicker.