Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

@ForestFae

However er we structure society there will be positives and negatives

I have zero desire to live an Amish lifestyle. I dont see why I should be forced to because its your ideal.

I'd rather society was less money and looks obsessed and valued different things but im glad tesco exists

And I certainly don't support the idea that not working is the ideal.

A balance between work and home life is the ideal.

Indeed but given spreadsheets are an invention, not something we’ve naturally evolved with or connected with reality in any way, I question how much of that is down to society.

But why does that make it a bad thing? Society evolves....

For goodness sake. They're a way of counting and recording things is all. Like chalk marks on a wall or a little book to record how many eggs you've swapped with your neighbour for a flagon of ale.
If you want to live an alternative lifestyle, you don't need all this pop sociology. Just get your husband to resign his relatively well paid job and crack on with it. Plenty of people do.

I don't think many people actually have children because they want to contribute something to society. It's far more personal and selfish than that.

Yes, as that person grows they try to ensure that they are a decent person who can contribute, but again even if they achieve that, why should they then be thanked for making a personal choice that didn't end badly for the rest of us?

Yes. And even parenting is a modern evolution. People used to just, well, have children. They didn’t, in the main, think of the act of having children as being their opportunity to impart greatness upon the world, or add social value with their child parented to an optimum level. I don’t think much of what the majority of developed-world middle class parents think of as being parented actions they should be validated and recognised by society for are natural or connected to reality.

@Vallmo47 you say you made lots of sacrifices for your kids, but in my mind that is the bare minimum, as you made them, and they only exist because you one day decided to have kids. From that moment on, they become your responsibility and it is only logical that you would do everything to see them right (as they wouldn’t be on this planet if it weren’t for you). I don’t think it is embarrassing to say you haven’t asked to be born, it is a fact. I guess I struggle a bit with the fact some people see having children as a selfless act, when in fact it is quite selfish. Parents say they become less selfish because they have to think of the children, but that is still selfish, because these children are of their own creation! So how is it selfless to look after something you made? It is doing stuff in your own interest. People seem to want society and everyone to thank them for raising their own children, as if they are doing something to the greater good. People have kids because they want someone to love, they want a family and someone to look after them etc. Not to make society a better place! Yet they still want thanks for what is a selfish decision. There are plenty of humans around, the planet is going to shit, and pension,social security etc is just a big Ponzi scheme which will burst anytime anyway despite of how many more humans we feed into the machine.

I agree a lot of modern parenting is invented and compartmentalised. I don’t understand it tbh. I take my kids along with what I’m already doing and just involve them in family and community life. Kids are a part of life. I don’t get all the looking at parenting as though it’s a separate entity.

I'd rather society was less money and looks obsessed and valued different things but im glad tesco exists. And I certainly don't support the idea that not working is the ideal. A balance between work and home life is the ideal.

100% agree with this.

But also this:

I agree a lot of modern parenting is invented and compartmentalised. I don’t understand it tbh. I take my kids along with what I’m already doing and just involve them in family and community life. Kids are a part of life. I don’t get all the looking at parenting as though it’s a separate entity.

It really isn't just a polarised choice between Amish and Have-it-all-Instamum. It's perfectly possible to go to work, raise happy kids and avoid a super-consumerist lifestyle. And make spreadsheets.

Parts of this thread are reminding me very much of my mother. She is very intelligent, but thinks the world would be a happier place if women had never got the vote and all stayed at home with their children. She refuses to have a mobile phone, loathes computers and the internet and hates driving. She conveniently ignores all the benefits she gets from living in a modern society, including the more enlightened views that didn't exist in the 1950s she often harks back to. I don't think she'd enjoy life without modern conveniences. It's easy for her to reject it all, while relying on it (and having a husband who happily uses a computer and mobile so she doesn't need to). It's romanticising, pure and simple.

@Pancakeorcrepe I don’t think our opinions differ wildly given your second reply, but I still think it’s right to give thanks to people who were good to you. I never said I’m not happy to make sacrifices for my kids, I don’t expect anything whatsoever, I just think it’s nice to do so. I thank my dad for things he did for me when younger, I don’t say “well I didn’t choose to be born”.
Manners cost nothing and it’s lovely to make your parents feel they are valued, that’s all I’m saying.

Not at all what about couples going through IVF? Have they not in your eyes achieved success if a baby results from it?

People used to have children because, unless they were celibate or in an occupation such as domestic service which precluded marriage and children, they didn’t have much choice.

Have a couple who have been through IVF and not had a baby failed?

Success is working hard... unless you have fertility issues baby making isn't exactly success! People fall on by mistake. Nobodyhas a career by accident? The 2 things are not comparable.

I'm one of 4 we all differ in personality, my mum raised us all the same way, being a parent is complex so it's not just how you have been brought up some kids are a lot easier/harder than others!

I think choosing to become a parent is being devalued yes.
I didn't think I could have DC I had been told to go to docs if I ever wanted a child.
When I fell pregnant it was unplanned.
We had a massive heart to heart and we had a choice like everyone else.
Abortion or keep.
The easy er route would have been abort, financially etc. Probably not emotionally etc but we would have been far better off if we had decided to abort.
We didn't we chose to keep her, to he honest it was. 2% chance we wouldn't but it is a choice.
We didn't have to chose the harder road of bringing a human into this world.
But my background is one ofnot many children in the family at all.
Children/having DC is not taken for granted at all so maybe the whole miracle seems more special to me?

This.

OK managing to get your kids to 18 healthy and happy and not in trouble with the law is an achievement (although I suspect much is down to luck and personality type, and not to how brilliant one's parenting is).

I think raising a happy, balanced child to adulthood is (mostly) an achievement.

(Getting pregnant (even doing so via IVF etc) isn't - the act of becoming a parent isn't an 'achievement'. Something to celebrate as happy news, most of the time, but largely just luck and biology, even when there's medical help involved.)

Even then you have so much luck and circumstance involved - starting from an inherited 5-bed pile in the country is very different than starting in a mouldy flat in a council tower block, starting with a neurotypical and physically able child very different to starting with a child who's neurodiverse or physically disabled etc.

The same is true for careers, though. If I'd made it to be a QC - as I originally wanted to - starting from a severely deprived background, I'd have considered that an achievement. My own career is much more modest but I'm still proud of it because I overcame a lot to get here. A work acquaintance of mine has a very, very impressive CV that makes mine look ridiculous by comparison, but his dad owns Very Big Company I Shouldn't Name Here and his internship at Other Big Company at 17 was via his godfather. There was less work in his getting to a starting point I'll probably never reach at my career peak. That's not to say he hasn't worked hard since and he absolutely deserves to be proud of it, of course.

But people can consider careers an achievement for two reasons - either someone has worked very very very hard or they've reached an impressive sounding pinnacle, and sometimes the latter doesn't involve the former.

So someone with a happy, well-adjusted 16 year old with amazing GCSEs and a good part time job who's never been in real trouble - yep, an achievement, but more so for someone who's had more cards stacked against them.

And I think that’s the problem with treating parenthood as an achievement: if raising a successful kid is something to pat yourself in the back about, then by default, raising one who objectively fails is something to feel shame over: and I don’t believe that follows.

Special needs aside, parenting is only as difficult and consuming as you want to make it. I’ve yet to meet an (NT) adult who wasn’t toilet trained and only ate chicken nuggets. Honestly - by the time your kid is 32 nobody will know or care whether they were breastfed or formula fed, had a WOHM or SAHM, were weaned on organic finger food, had regular attendance at baby sing-song classes, or were allowed lots of screen time. How we all eventually turn out is mostly nothing to do with the minutiae of parenting. Just do your best, don’t be actively abusive or neglectful, and your kid will turn out just fine. Stop judging others for what you perceive as shortcomings, and be a bit easier on yourself for your own.

Yes, if you end up with an adult kid you think you did a good job with, it’s fine to acknowledge that to yourself and your co-parent. I’m not sure why we need to be debating whether parenting needs to be considered an achievement by anyone else.

@ComtesseDeSpair

Because if you make your children your whole life and whole identity, its a but if a kicker to realise no one else really cares and that it really didn't make any difference to the outcome

Thats why sahm get so annoyed about perceived lack of value from others

If you want acknowledgement from "society" for doing good job of looking after children, then "society" will have to define what a good job looks like. Does it mean having a child who gets good grades? Or is fit and healthy? Or doesn't bully other children? Is any consideration made for whether you got an amenable child or one with SEN? And are you considered a failure if, despite doing everything you can, your child doesn't tick all the boxes?

What planet are you on?? Some couples have success. Otherwise the IVF clinics would be out of business. You replyed but not to my question.

How you raise your children does matter. But it is not only mothers who have an influence on how their children turn out.
No one should make their children their whole identity.

I have 3 great kids. All not far from adulthood, I don’t think I deserve any kind of praise for that. I also have a career, which I work hard at. I don’t view them both as they same, parenthood I just view as something I chose to do for the rest of my life, without thanks.

@antelopevalley

It matters in terms of abuse v not abuse but in a loving secure home?

Nah, I'm not convinced parenting choices make a huge amount of difference and being a sahm certainly doesn't

There is a lot of truth here. Making your children your sole “project” can cause problems, particularly when they don’t turn out to be who you wanted them to be. It feels more like a personal failure. Before anyone starts, I am a mum of 2.

Any fertile person can have a child it’s just what you can do. You don’t have to have a super high IQ you don’t have to have earned a million in the bank. Honestly it’s not special. The amount of children in the care system show that.

now being a good parent and raising a successful child is something but also a lot of that comes down to them not you.