Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

Reasonably but not extremely. Certainly not the mumsnet standard of 7k a month (check out that what do you earn thread)!

So what about all the women who have husbands on lower wages? Hard to imagine them accessing the lifestyle you describe. It's easy to blame the capitalist society, but living costs money whatever your society is like.

I understand why they wouldn’t like it, but I also understand the effect of growing up in a society that prioritises materialism, career success, capitalism, throwaway fashion and other objects, conformity and maintenance of the status quo.

But you still think you're right and everyone else is wrong!

It shouldn’t be pushed, it should just be presented as one way to be happy.

I have 3 kids and I don’t find them particularly expensive.

Just to add - seen in this context, you can understand why women want to say 'motherhood is not without value - it's eveything'. But ultimately, the sentimentalising / 'spiritualising' of motherhood doesn't touch the main problem, which is women have to do it for free.

Pay women to raise children? Maybe. But in fact I don't think there is a solution within postmodern capitalism, which will always adapt to survive by co-opting any authentic attempt to mitigate its effects on humans.

@ForestFae

I dont think the past youre hankering after ever existed

What about them? That’s again, a societal issue. The kind of society I would like wouldn’t prohibit anyone from it as we’d all be doing our bit helping each other.

@WinterDeWinter

but at a population level, motherhood is women doing society's shitwork for free.

Yup ! And nowadays on top of that, you also need to maintain a successful career, so you can be seen by other women to actually contribute to society.

I’m not hankering after the past I’m saying we should have built upon the positives in a different way to what society has instead done.

@ForestFae I find this hard to believe that 3 kids is not expensive. I took DS to a fair... he spent around £50 now if I had 2 more kids it would be £150. DS is 7 and size 5 adults average pair of trainers cost £60. Holidays....day trips. Perhaps the term expensive is relative to be fair. Childcare in school holidays...travel OMG and we live in the North!

Places like DLP and taking 3 kids....perhaps your used to that type of expense.

Some people need pushing though. It depends on your child's personality. Money makes life a lot easier! I'm by no means rich bit DS and I have never struggled since he's been born and I'm quite grateful.

I’ve never spent £50 at a fair, even for all of mine together! What did you buy?! Trainers cost me about £30 a pair - I don’t have to pay for childcare as I’m a SAHM, I agree childcare can be expensive. Travel again, I don’t think is expensive either, but I don’t go to places like DLP we have no interest in it - we go camping, hiking, UK seaside towns etc. It depends what kind of lifestyle you want, I suppose. We aren’t big on materialism.

I don’t believe people need pushing. That sounds more like what their parents want, not what they want.

Also your DS must be really tall?! DS1 is 7 and he’s tall for his age and a size 1 shoe. Size 5 at 7 is mad!

I understand OP. I’ve been told the thanks will come later when they are adults and having their own. Then and only then do your kids truly understand how much work goes into it. Until that point it’s your husband you need to turn to for support and gratitude.

@ForestFae

What positives?

No. The original post was merely encouraging kids to do better.

With all due respect £50 at a kids fair is easily spent. £3.50 / £4 a ride. Lunch and drinks.... it soon adds up. I did Butlins and again the food was poor and expensive for a 4 night stay never again.

Im a single parent I must add. We holiday all around the world from Spain to Jamaica as its important as I want DS to know his roots my Grandparents are Carribean so it's essential. I also get a break from the busy UK life, the cooking, cleaning and washing!

School shoes in Clarks £55 approx I tried M&S and they were shocking quality. Shops like JD for trainers easily £60 on trainers.

More emphasis on community, craftsmanship, less consumerism, more time outdoors and with nature, being able to do real skills (think building things and farming instead of using spreadsheets), living close to family, the work being more about immediate benefit to the family instead of some abstraction where payment is derived through a socially constructed electronic currency that only has value because we collectively believe it to…I could go on.

@Vallmo47 but why do they have to be grateful? People have kids for themselves, not for the actual kids. It is not a selfless thing to have kids, it is actually quite selfish, as in it is something people do purely for them. You’re not doing them a favour, they didn’t ask to be born.

I bring my own food for my kids when we go out.

it would be more expensive as a single parent, my kids grandparents are Indian but neither me nor DH have any desire to travel there any time soon. It sounds like you have a different lifestyle and have different hobbies than what we do.

@ForestFae yes he's a tall boy! I'm 5ft 3 and size 8 in shoes! I think I'm the only short person with big feet and short! He's got a broad foot like me...DS dad has a German genes also!

@ForestFae

Don't know what society your living in but the one I'm in still has those things.

It alai has the kardashians but can't win em all I suppose

We've evolved to reproduce.

As a pp said, it's an achievement to produce exceptionally well rounded children etc
Simply reproducing isnt a comparison with an unusually successful career. Producing exceptional children is but relatively few people do.

For what it's worth, I earned a First Class degree & then a PhD from very decent universities & I still think all that was piss easy compared to being a half decent parent during the baby & toddler years.

@Pancakeorcrepe It hugely depends on what your parents were like in my opinion. They don’t HAVE to be grateful, but I am hugely thankful to my mum for all that she was. I wish every day she was around to see me practise what she preached. If your parents were good and you had a good upbringing, why would you not be thankful for all they’ve done for you? But like I said, it hugely depends on what your upbringing was like. I make loads of sacrifices for my kids and try to better myself when I’ve gone wrong. I don’t expect gratitude but I hope one day my kids will understand how hard it was at times and say they appreciate me.

Having the attitude of “I didn’t choose to be born” is very entitled. I say that as someone who used to say that and I am now so embarrassed by it. To each their own.

It has them but it’s not the majority nor is it easy to structure your life this way if you wish. I’ve managed to do about 70% of it but not everyone has that available to them.

forestfae but not everyone wants to be outdoors or be builders or farmers. Some people like spreadsheets!

Indeed but given spreadsheets are an invention, not something we’ve naturally evolved with or connected with reality in any way, I question how much of that is down to society.