Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

Of course they don’t, because most people are socialised from birth into a materialistic way of being and then school teaches from an early age to conform and join the system. “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society”

So people who see the world differently to you are wrong? How arrogant.

Yes, I have to live in the society we have. But I avoid it where possible, and ideally I’d live in a small farming community with minimal modern conveniences, where we all worked for the good of each other and craftsmanship was prized. I don’t mind hard work, I don’t have an issue with working, I have an issue with the kind of work modern society prioritises and places on a pedestal. If I had my way society would look very different to how it currently does.

If everyone did what you do, your life would be a lot harder than it is. Your lifestyle is only possible because others have chosen a lifestyle you look down on.

Absolutely

Excellent point!

Being aware of the effects of socialisation isn’t arrogant.

Not by most women, either.

Having a child is viewed as the ultimate achievement. A basic biological thing that almost any woman can do, sometimes even by accident, but it's lauded like some kind of amazing feat.

I've just passed a language exam at C2 level - basically native level. I've spent years and years working hard on learning and perfecting it and had to study really hard for the exam, which included a long, challenging speaking component. It's barely been acknowledged, just a 'oh well done'.

A friend ran a marathon...months of training hard, following a strict diet, getting up at 5am, all of this while having an MS diagnosis...barely any recognition or congratulations.

Another friend has made partner in a law firm...years of hard work and study, coming from a working class background, dealing with sexism, misogyny and much more. She grew up in a council flat in Stoke and is now looking to buy a beautiful flat in zone 1 London on her own.

But push a baby out of your vagina and somehow you're special and amazing and it's the biggest achievement any woman could ever imagine.

@Fairislefandango not patronising at all. It was bloody hard and financially, I had to start from scratch and lived in a shitty rented bedsit in a shitty part of a shitty town for years. I often don't think MN realise how hard it is for working class kids whose parents aren't in a position to help them financially or even emotionally in my case

Being unwilling to accept other viewpoints because you believe yours is the only one that counts is arrogant.

Instead of trying understand that some people would not like to life by your ideals you decide that they are wrong.

You come across as so arrogant and patronising.

I understand why they wouldn’t like it, but I also understand the effect of growing up in a society that prioritises materialism, career success, capitalism, throwaway fashion and other objects, conformity and maintenance of the status quo.

Basically!

I agree OP unfortunately. I don't think being a parent is comparable to having a career tbh.perhaps because it's so common to be a parent. You can easily be a parent...you can not easily start and maintain a career though.

My only thoughts somewhat like this is when people say things like "oh I have a daughter and I'd be so upset if she didn't make something more of her life than that" on threads or about situations where someone is a mum and has just a job, not a career, just a job. Life is for living, I love having a job I can leave at the door and never fret about in my spare time, I love being part time and having more time for my kids. I'm happy. Why would you be disappointed for your daughter to be happy? Careers aren't the only way to have a healthy, happy and rich life.

@pixie5121 as someone who can't even remember the French I was taught at school, that is a massive achievement. Well done.

But it's easy to say that when you don't have to do it.

What would happen if one of your children had a serious accident on this farm? They'd probably just die, given that there would be nobody who was medically trained and no hospital. Would you be fine with that?

Would you be OK with walking to the nearest well and only being able to have a stand-up wash? Having to wash the dishes and your clothes with no running water?

Would you be OK with not being able to get any medical help? Having serious, worrying symptoms and just having to live with them?

I've lived in a developing country where all the above happens. It feels a bit crass when people who have always had comfortable Western lifestyle fetishise what is actually a very tough existence. I also am a countryside loving, beach loving hippy at heart who dreams of living off grid in a converted van, but I know that if I did, I'd still be depending on others to some extent.

I understand why they wouldn’t like it, but I also understand the effect of growing up in a society that prioritises materialism, career success, capitalism, throwaway fashion and other objects, conformity and maintenance of the status quo.

Is your husband a high earner by any chance? Because to sustain this lovely lifestyle you want, you need someone paying the mortgage and bills. Or do you do that, in which case, you're a hypocrite aren't you.

Thank you!

It depends on how you see yourself. In more communal societies i.e. Asia, you are defined by your relationships with your family, tribe. Even your career is seen as an extension of the family network for example, you becoming a lawyer/doctor is to bring pride to your family and to provide a good income to support your parents, siblings and ultimately children. Therefore having children is a way of expanding this family network which defines you.

We are more individualistic here but I do find that we still define ourselves to a certain extent by our family relationships. Like someone said upthread, beloved wife/mother is what is written on the headstone. When I attend funerals here, the speakers always speak at length at how much the deceased loved her children. The mourners are the children. There are often few friends because most of the friends have passed on. Nieces/nephews are distant. I suppose for some people, being able to leave a legacy is important so even though having children is not impressive in itself, I do think it's impressive when I see an older person with children who have a good relationship with her and take pains to remember her even after she is gone.. I think that is a beautiful thing and not everyone would have that.

It's a choice to become a parent, OP. That's the thing. Fertility is a lottery but the choice to exercise it is down to individuals.

There are some parents who think they're bloody amazing - and, in my opinion they are great but by the same token, some of those self-aggrandising parents would have done better by the child(ren) either not to have them - or to farm them out, boarding school, full time nanny, anybody but them. They wouldn't recognise that though.

Most parents are just doing their best and their children will either thrive - or not. A bit of a lottery, no matter how much people think their 'grounding' has achieved all that.

My best advice is enjoy the result of your choice but don't look for validation for being a parent. Some days are easier than others but know that even the worst day only lasts 24 hours. I think of that quite often. Do your best and stop comparing yourself to others.

Sorry wrong thread!

There's no law in this Country though that can force you to be a parent. Many fathers don't step up and nothing happens....you can give up your legal parental responsibility if you wish!

What use is it if no repercussions are pushed anyway?

Nowhere have i said I don’t believe in medicine. I’ve said we should take the best bits from the past and build upon them, not eschew all medical care.

Id be fine with collecting water from a well though. Or washing things in a bucket. I make almost all of my own cleaning products, I don’t use or have a dishwasher, I cook from scratch, I forage and grow our food. You make massive assumptions about the life I’ve lived and what sort things I do or don’t do.

No. The problem is people for whom it is insufficient to be grateful for their good fortune in being able to conceive and birth a child, who feel the need to court praise by framing it as an achievement.
Having a baby is not what you term 'getting an achievement' anymore than having brown eyes, 20/20 vision or being double jointed. All it means is your body has worked in a particular way that some people's doesn't.
People want children, they have children if they are fortunate. For goodness sake just get on with it rather than expecting a round of applause for it.
(And yes, I have 'achieved' children.)

Reasonably but not extremely. Certainly not the mumsnet standard of 7k a month (check out that what do you earn thread)!

I often don't think MN realise how hard it is for working class kids whose parents aren't in a position to help them financially or even emotionally in my case

I'm sure you're right. I teach those kids, and it's only too obvious how hard it will be for them to break out of the mold even if they want to. Obviously there is nothing at all wrong with settling down and having a family soon after leaving school if that's what you really want to do. But it's hard to even have the mindset to consider the alternatives if that's the way you've been brought up. And it's a big risk for the girls particularly - it often does not end up with the hoped-for happy family, but rather with the woman ending up as a single parent.

I think there are two things going on at the same time; they appear to contradict each other which makes them hard to get to grips with.

There's the Instagram 'raising up of mummas' which is part of a postmodern 'spiritual consumer' path that we\ve been on for some time. It prioritises individual growth, individual journeys, and propagandises that inequality crumbles every time an oppressed individual is celebrated or validated.

In fact, equality can only be achieved by breaking down long term, structural oppressions - structural in the sense that capitalist societies can't function without them - which exist along the axes of race, sex and class. And the reality is that motherhood - the preparation, for free, of th next gen of workers/consumers - is a structural oppression of women.

There might be upsides at a personal level, and we might make adjustments with 'good' DHs, but at a population level, motherhood is women doing society's shitwork for free.

These things seem to be in contradiction to one another, but in fact they are just two sides of the same coin.

People with careers are more likely to have less finical strain. For me this is important although I hear what you are saying and that is equally important because you only get one life and we all should look after ourselves.

There's nothing wrong with pushing ambition though.

Therea many threads and IRL people moaning about how expensive kids are with 2+ kids it's draining..." I have 3 to pay for at the fair". This was one reason why I stuck to 1 DC!