Having children isn't viewed as an achievement, the same way having a successful career is

[gagablacksheep]

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on this.

Having children is the hardest thing I've ever done, yet, I feel like, as the majority of people have children- it's nothing ' special ' that you get any kind of pat on the back for, in the same way you would - if, say you had a very successful career.

The kind of social standing that comes with being very successful career wise, just isn't the same, as being a mum. Most people can be ' a mum ', but most people can't have very successful careers.

Is it just me, or is being a mum just a bog standard thing, that seems a bit 'thankless' in the eyes of society ? Sorry if I've not explained my feeling and thoughts very well.

Instagram influencer - made up. Not necessary at all. Doctor- necessary.

Valuing parenting would not be about congratulating people on it. It would be about providing the conditions in society to support it properly - things like affordable childcare, good education, fair parental leave conditions. Not congratulations. We don’t have these things. I only realised this when I became a parent, to be fair, which I admit does not reflect well on me.

We do need people to have children to keep society going. If couples have two children on average than that’s essentially just replacement level isn’t it. If you don’t want to keep society going, that’s another story.

Asking other people not to have kids because you want to overconsume is the height of selfishness.

People are exhibiting a lot of self serving bias in attributing their career successes only to themselves alone. This is a classic attribution bias.

Some jobs matter a lot more than others - this is sadly not reflected in pay and conditions.

A lot of people are like this nowadays. I think it’s rather sad but there’s nothing I can do about it so crack on. I’ll carry on enjoying the grass beneath my bare feet, the heat of cooking over an open fire and the joy of growing food to sustain my family. I hope you find meaning in the life you have chosen.

Yes, all of this!

The vast majority of people are not interested in other people's jobs or careers. They don't really comprehend it; they haven't walked that path and they couldn't care less. People are, in the main, only interested in their own spheres. Unless you do something that's truly exceptional, there is no point looking for external validation from anyone else. It's a hiding to nothing. Most people are cogs in wheels and if they left their jobs tomorrow, they would be replaced in an instant. This is the reality if it.

I don't think society values the vast majority of working people. If an individual sets great store by their job title, or this is an important part of their identity, then great. But it's utterly meaningless to anyone else.

Whether you work or whether you are a SAHM, it's totally irrelevant what anyone else thinks. You have to find your own value because nobody else cares.

Not so basic for a couple having difficulty TTC.

No, you haven't got that right at all. I sa8d parenting is not valued on here. I read one thread where the poster was told she was doing 'nothing' with her life, because she was a sahm. That is not a true (or kind) thing to say to someone.

I fundamentally agree with you on this.

on one hand being a good parent is an achievement. But the only person who can say you are a good parent is your child when they are adult and independent. It is not something you can self congratulate on, as too many people are quite frankly fucking deluded.

so many shitty, selfish, intolerant people would say they are great parents. When they are far from it.

Who a child is as an adult is down to them, with upbringing being a part of that development, a child who is loved, nurtured, cared for, attended to, who is given the freedom to grow, and whose parents lead by example, demonstrating kindnesss, a clear knowledge of right from wrong, strong boundaries and a strong work ethic, will often turn into a more well rounded adult than someone whose parents were a pair of intolerant selfish, self absorbed losers. But not always, because nature plays a major major part over nurture. Who you are is down to you.

it’s a complex algorithm, but ultimately we as adults are responsible for us as individuals. As parents we only get the credit if our adult child can look us in the eye as an adult and say I had a wonderful child hood. Thank you.

A lot of people are like this nowadays. I think it’s rather sad but there’s nothing I can do about it so crack on. I’ll carry on enjoying the grass beneath my bare feet, the heat of cooking over an open fire and the joy of growing food to sustain my family. I hope you find meaning in the life you have chosen.

Good for you. There's no need to be do patronising though.
I live a very meaningful life. I live I a lovely village which has an amazing community. I have a wonderful family and I also happen to be very career focussed.
My life is far from meaningless - you can enjoy modern society and life a meaningful life

Instagram influencer - made up. Not necessary at all. Doctor- necessary.
But being an influencer might bring meaning to someone's life. It now exists as a job.
All jobs were 'made up' at some point.

I wouldn't be proud of someone for having sex and then raising the children they decided to have.

Agree. Can't understand why people think it's unreasonable that SAHPs aren't praised enough and require constant recognition for doing the simple task of producing a kid. Most people, regardless of how much effort they put in, can manage that.

Now a parent who also works and financially contributes to raising the child they chose to have instead of relying on government benefits and someone else to pay for them to live, now THAT is impressive and deserved more recognition if recognition is needed.

Bitterness in my words?! Not financially secure? Bloody hell, this site! I am a teacher, my husband also has a good job, we have paid off the mortgage. None of this has any thing to do with the fact that I consider my DD my greatest achievement. Why is having children seen as such a non-event on here? Someone upthread compared having children to having a poo, fgs!

Most families need two incomes these days due to house prices and the general cost of living. The fact is, the vast majority of families can't afford to have a SAHP, even if they wanted one. MN is quite 'anti-SAHM' and it's understandable really, as it's a lifestyle not available to most. It seems to incite a lot of suspicion and misunderstanding in those things do not live that lifestyle. As mums, we are conditioned to feel guilty whatever we do (in a way men are not). This is why any thread with 'SAHM' in the title will generally run to 100 posts. It triggers people - in the sense of, "What does she think she's doing with her kids that I'm not?' This is the crux of it and why people get so wound up about SAHMs and insist they are essentially doing nothing that can't be done around a paid job. Then SAHMs get defensive because they know full well what they're doing day in day out. Then it's the same old same old circular argument. But really everyone is just projecting their own individual circumstances and insecurities into the 'debate.' Anyway, nobody is going to change their lifestyle because of what anyone else thinks, outside of their family. People do the best they can in the context of the choices available to them.

A lot of people are like this nowadays. I think it’s rather sad but there’s nothing I can do about it so crack on. I’ll carry on enjoying the grass beneath my bare feet, the heat of cooking over an open fire and the joy of growing food to sustain my family. I hope you find meaning in the life you have chosen

I don’t really understand this to be honest. We have a lawn like many people. I am often barefoot on it. We have a bbq and an extensive veg patch, five large raised beds, so we grow food, we cook over an open fire. But not to the exclusion of everything else. I also have a career, a range cooker, and have Ocado deliver groceries. My life is multi faceted. The meaning in my life is my relationships, the love, the friendships, my family, rhe experiences, the achievements, the joy, the sadness, not what shoes I wear , the fact I grow potatoes or how I cook my food. That’s just inverted materialistic shite.

1000 posts! Sorry for typos up there.

A lot of people are like this nowadays. I think it’s rather sad but there’s nothing I can do about it so crack on. I’ll carry on enjoying the grass beneath my bare feet, the heat of cooking over an open fire and the joy of growing food to sustain my family. I hope you find meaning in the life you have chosen.

It's funny that you think these things are mutually exclusive. Some of us have jobs we value, children we love, happily arrange our family life in order to facilitate what we wantand need to do, and are able to enjoy nature etc while still being part of modern society. Amazing!

Ha oh yes. As every woman who doesn't have children would tell you, many mothers are very good at putting themselves on a pedestal and congratulating and thanking themselves.

Whilst those of us who didn't procreate are frequently told that we are inferior, don't know love, don't understand this, that or the other, are immature, irresponsible and were never, ever tired....and if we are it's due to our shallow hard partying lifestyle. 🙄

I came into existence because my parents had a shag. They were just ordinary parents, nothing special. I grew up in a council house on a fairly rural estate and wasn't expected to amount to much by my parents.

I'm now a senior manager in the NHS. I was the first and still, only person in my family to go to university. In fact I was the first to go to college and do a levels. I had no one to guide me through my career choices, I had to do it myself. I left my red brick University with a fairly average degree amd went into teaching because I didn't know what else to do. I also married my childhood boyfriend as it was expected of me. My family and friends all saw my marriage as more of an achievement than going to university and getting a degree.
I then quit teaching and did a masters as a way to have some breathing space. My family thought that it was a mistake as I didn't need a post grad degree to become a mother. I just needed to have sex with my husband, which was actually a bit of a challenge as my husband was in fact shagging a whole lot of other women.
After I left him, after I finished my masters I moved to the other end of the country and got a job as band 3 administrator in a hospital.
Over the next 15 years I've worked my way up to the role that I'm in today -8c for those who know their agenda for change.
On her deathbed my mothers only comment to me was how sad it was that I'd never had children. I told her to fuck off. That was my last words to her.

So no, I don't thank mothers and no I don't think having children and bringing them up is more of an achievement than what I did. You may disagree, but as long as you feel appreciated in your own family, then why should I give you validation of your life choices too?

I absolutely love this sentiment @Tipsyturvychocolatemonster - “my life is multifaceted.”

Instagram influencer - made up. Not necessary at all. Doctor- necessary.

A doctor being better/more useful than an influencer is a matter of opinion. What defines a job is whether someone will give you money/resources to do it. If they will, they see is as valuable in some way.

For instance, an influencer might encourage someone to exercise more or teach them how to cook healthy meals for themselves. In the long run, that could contribute to their health far more than a doctor.

Excellent post, @thesurrealist . If it doesn't sound too patronising -well done on your career and ditching the waste-of-space husband against your family's expectations! That's definitely an achievement.

Raising children is bloody hard, and yes if you do it well and make decent humans you should be proud of that. However, most parents strive to do that AND hold down a job. And that is even harder, especially for women who still do the lion's share of parenting, family admin, housework etc. (I am aware there are exceptions but it's still the more typical set-up). So yes, by all means recognise the challenges of parenting and feel pride if you are managing to do a good job, but I am wary of any narrative that encourages women to get the totality of their self-worth from housework and child-rearing. I don't think they are great role models for their children, as the reality is that those children will probably have to combine paid work and child-rearing when they are adults, and they need to see that women aren't just caregivers and cleaners.

I don't think parents need to be congratulated. After all, all they had was romantic shenanigans and parenting their offspring usually doesn't have an effect on anyone else. If the kids turns out well, well it could be simply the kid's doing and have nothing to do with the parents. I look at my beautiful doctor, she is in her 60s and has had two children...and I thank her for the work that she does for the community.
I'm a SAHM and I really don't think I should be hugely valued by the community. I'm not currently putting into the community- I can value myself though.

Of course you are but modern society as it is is a scourge and I wish more could see that.

So women being the property of men then?

I think raising children well is an achievement, and personally I find it harder work than I ever did school/uni/my career.

I still work full time but spreadsheets and powerpoints are a lot less mentally taxing than overseeing the DCs development.