To ask if Co-Ed is better than single sex..

[CHiSOCG]

For girls? My DH is keen on Co-Ed. Most of my friends are looking at local single sex grammar or independent. Of course most will go co-ed comprehensive if they don’t pass the 11+ for the grammar.

"This is what I've mainly seen, but also people being uncomfortable with the opposite sex at work, which is a huge problem."

"Nonsense."

It's not nonsense that I've seen people who didn't grow up around the opposite sex be uncomfortable with them at work. And it has nothing to do with those people being twats. If you work in an organisation where the top person is a bachelor with no sisters who went to an all boys school and is uncomfortable in a room with a woman, that's a problem for you even more so than for that man.

So let's tackle the problem at a societal level

Oh yes I absolutely agree with that in principle. I just haven't the slightest idea how that can be achieved and have no confidence whatsoever that it will be achieved. In the absence of a cure, people who have access to sticking plasters can and should use them. You can only operate within the system which exists.

We should just call mixed sex schools 'normal'. It's the separation that's not normal.

We should just call mixed sex schools 'normal'.

That's not a very helpful, specific or informative label though, is it? "What kind of school is St. Mary's school?" "A normal school". Normal is an unnecessarily judgmental label imo. Is a faith school 'not normal', or a special school 'not normal'? Presumably not, as they are in the minority compared with secular comprehensives.

Unfortunately the behaviour in a lot of mixed sex schools isn't 'normal' and wouldn't be tolerated in any other educational institution or workplace.

I've met a few from mixed schools who can't relate properly to the opposite sex.

Then the problem is with those schools.

I don't have kids so excuse my ignorance. I mentioned up thread I went to a girls school. This was in the 70s/80s. Back then in my Borough (Brent) there was 4 single sex state schools, mine and a boys school were voluntary aided faith schools (RC). There was also 2 non secular schools, 1 boys and 1 girls.

In the borough I live now, there is one non secular girls school, but no boys school.

In the Borough I work in there are 3 girls state schools. One RC, one Jewish and one non secular. Again no boys schools. Is this common in boroughs/councils that they fund girls but not boys.

BTW I'm including Academies as state schools, I know they're funded differently but as I don't work in education and don't have kids I don't really understand the differences. In my eyes if the parents don't pay for it they're all state schools.

I went to a single sex school and at the time wished I'd gone to a mixed sex one. Now I think single sex is better for girls, I bet the misogyny from boys at school could make it quite miserable

Life in coed schools is very different to 20+ years ago. I teach at my former secondary school do can make direct comparisons. As a student there was a small amount of bullying, name calling stuff I'm sure we all remember but I don't remember any misogyny from the boys, at least not at the same level we have now. As a member of staff, several students have been excluded for their misogynistic comments made towards me including rape threats, similarly for other female members of staff and its not particularly aimed at young staff either I'm old enough to be their mother. It isn't because the school is bad at dealing with it, they are very good but in a world where porn is easily accessible it seems to be becoming the norm. If students are happy to make rape threats and use sexualised comments to their teachers imagine what they say and do to their peers.

If I could have paid for DD to go single sex that is what I would have done.

I went to a single sex private school. Not only did I hate the sex segregation, I also hated going to the weird school miles from the school where the local kids went. This had the side effect that I didn’t really have friends in the neighbourhood. I used to consider my school “Sex Apartheid”. It did mess me up quite a lot in my teena and into my early twenties with echoes of those issues still causing me trouble in my mid 40s now.

Strange to read the comment about single sex school = to be uncomfortable around men, be nervous around them or think their aliens.

Because I went toschool woth boys and even to this day I feel this way about men.
And it’s because I was exposed to their horrible/nasty/bullying behaviour.

I donmt think I’ll ever trust one of them or feel like thei are humans, like women are.

Then the problem is with those schools.

How many schools have you been in? I've been in lots. And I have many teacher friends and ex-colleagues in lots of other schools. These are widespread problems which are found to some extent in most schools.

I've met a few from mixed schools who can't relate properly to the opposite sex.

Me too. In fact my observation of a lit of the behaviour between boys and girls in mixed schools is not exactly indicative of mixed schools creating positive, healthy relationships between the sexes.

I would suggest the problem is with society, not ‘those schools’.

Co Ed, the world is Co Ed why would you prepare kids for adult life in separate schools? We had the option of single sex because our local comp was single sex (very unusually) but I went out of area to avoid it

Co Ed, the world is Co Ed why would you prepare kids for adult life in separate schools?

There are all kinds of things about life as a child which don't replicate adult life. If people are happy with their local mixed school, that's great. If they are concerned about the various issues mentioned on this thread, and/or have read research which confirms that single sex schools are academically beneficial to girls, then they might wish to send their daughter to one. There are plenty of opportunities to mix with boys at extracurricular and social activities outside of school, do there is no need for their life to be dingle-sex.

I would suggest the problem is with society, not ‘those schools’.

Yep.

Ss state schools aren't a thing here and AFAIK there aren't many private either, maybe 1 or 2?

I accept that ss may be better for girls but I dont think segregation works

Would we accept it for anything else?

We should be tackling the issues of male sexual harassment from a young age.

Otherwise they just grow up to adult men who think it's OK

I accept that ss may be better for girls but I dont think segregation works.

In what way does it not work? What evidence do you have that it doesn't achieve what the parents and/or their daughters want it to achieve? Because that is the measure of whether it works or not. Parents send their daughters to ss schools becathey think they will be happy and do well there, not in order to achieve societal change.

@Fairislefandango

It doesn't solve the societal issue.

It doesn't stop other kinds of bullying.

It doesn't stop girls wanting to meet up with boys outside of school.

There are positives and negatives to both.

I cant say that I've heard any of my peers discussing sexual harassment of their daughters during school hours being a huge issue.

I'd need to check the stats for here, not sure if its broken down by country though.

But it is still valid for others to use societal change as a measure for whether SS education 'works', even if that's not what the individual parent is interested in. It's like the grammar school debate (which I'm not suggesting we get into here!). There is a difference between looking at whether grammar schools 'work' for the individual student, or for society as a whole. Both are perfectly valid ways of looking at the argument.

It doesn't solve the societal issue.

It's not meant to. That's not the purpose of it at all.

It doesn't stop other kinds of bullying.

Stopping sexual harrassment and sexual assault is still a win. And there are other well-publicised benefits which have nothing to do with bullying.

It doesn't stop girls wanting to meet up with boys outside of school.

Who wants to stop girls meeting up with boys outside of school?! Various people on the thread (including me) have been saying that girls in single sex schools can and should meet up with boys outside of school!

The biggest issue I have with SS education, and why I feel that the focus should be on societal change, is that SS education is only available to people with money. People who can afford private schooling can pay for an escape for their DDs. People who can afford to pay for tutoring to get their DDs into grammar schools can pay for an escape. The rest of the female school population are just thrown under the bus. It isn't good enough.

Exactly @pointythings

@Fairislefandango

Aren't you worried they'll be sexually assaulted if they do?

I'm aware ss girls schools aren't meant to solve the societal issue.

Thats why I said segregation doesn't help

But it is still valid for others to use societal change as a measure for whether SS education 'works'

I see what you mean, but in order to know whether something works, you have to establish what the actual purpose of it was in the first place.

If the purpose of single sex education is to allow students to safely and happily fulfil their academic potential while they are at school, then it is completely unreasonable to assess its success based on whether it achieves societal change which it was not necessarily intending to create.

The interesting thing is that it seems to be widely accepted (presumably based on data, but I've not read it) that ss schools benefit girls but not boys. So arguably ss 'works', but generally speaking only for girls. Of course, as has been said, the water is muddied by the fact that there are relatively few ss state comprehensives. So it must be difficult to sift out whether the benefits are caused by ss itself or other aspects typical in ss schools (e.g. academic selection).