to think my nephew’s bad behaviour isn’t acceptable?

[KarenOLantern]

I have a DD (2) who was born in lockdown so I didn’t make any mum friends, none of my friends have kids, so I am clueless as to what to expect/how to react to other children’s behaviour and would really appreciate other perspectives here, plus ideas on how to respond.

We have two nephews on my DH’s side (both 4, not brothers) who live very far away, so we see them about 2-3 times a year. One of them (let’s call him George) is fine. The other (Alex) was a really kind and sweet toddler, but I am struggling to see anything positive about his behaviour over the last year, and I don’t know if I am being unreasonable by expecting too much from such a young kid, or if I’m right to think his behaviour isn’t great.

We are currently 5 days into a 10-day stay with Alex and his parents, and I am not exaggerating when I say I don’t think he has been pleasant to my DD for more than 5 minutes at a time. We were told he was really excited to see her and he talks about her all the time, which I am sure is true, but his idea of playing with her involves:

• roughly picking her up and carrying her around, no matter how much she cries, tells him to stop, or the adults tell him not to because he’s hurting her and it’s dangerous;

• pushing her down and sitting on top of her (again, ignoring her crying, and repeating it after adults have told him not to);

• whatever she’s doing, he has to annoy her somehow. If she’s playing with a toy, he'll snatch it off her/push her off it. If she’s drinking water he’ll snatch her cup and try to force-feed it to her (pressing the cup really hard into her face and hurting her). If she’s on a chair he’ll pull her off roughly, while shouting at her; if she climbs off the chair he shouts “No! You’ve got to sit on the chair!” and lifts her back onto it.

• He shouts and screams at her if she isn’t doing what he thinks she should be doing (which always seems to be the opposite of whatever she is currently doing).

• Several times I have had to physically stop him from putting a cushion/duvet on her face and sitting on it.

• Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands.

-Whenever he is physically prevented from any of this behaviour he screams very loudly, swings his limbs around and throws things.

When my DD is obviously distressed/in danger I step in physically, although I have also been trying to encourage her to shout "stop" , but she hasn't yet. While all this is going on, Alex's parents are usually there telling him to stop, but he pays them very little mind. They often threaten punishments, but I have yet to see one actually happen.

My MIL seems to think this is just “normal boy behaviour”… except that the other cousin George never behaves like this at all. He can be noisy and chaotic of course, but I’ve never seen him be aggressive or purposefully hurt or annoy another child like Alex seems to almost constantly. (It’s also worth noting, Alex behaves in a similar manner with George too, but as they are the same age/size George can stand up for himself much better.)

Alex’s parents seem to think most of this behaviour comes from a desire to help people, and they are always going on about how caring he is, (eg. when he picks my DD up it’s because he wants to help her walk, when he snatches her water cup and presses it to her face he’s trying to help her drink, etc., and it’s just that he’s too young to know when to stop.) But I am inclined to suspect they’re a bit misty-eyed and just trying to put a positive spin on everything he does. For a start, he’s so aggressive and shouty when trying to “help” my DD that I struggle to see it as “caring”. When there’s no way to put a positive spin on something he’s done, his parents blame it on being hungry or tired or a tummy ache, (but if that’s the case then he’s been hungry and tired almost constantly for the last 5 days, despite eating and sleeping at normal times…).

I just feel like I’m in a bit of an alternate universe, as I keep seeing these patterns of unpleasant behaviour where Alex seems to be constantly, and purposefully, trying to hurt or annoy the other two children, but the other adults in the family seem completely blind to it.

So yeah, any perspectives welcome please. Is this really within the bounds of normal 4-year-old boy behaviour? Am I being too precious with my DD? Will he just naturally grow out of behaving like this? How would you respond if you were Alex’s parents? How would you respond if you were me? TIA

I ended a friendship because my friends boy behaved exactly like this to my dd.
Same age gap.
The boy is an adult now and has been in prison several times.😪

Might be within the boundaries of normal unsocialised behaviour of a 4yo, absolutely not normal to allow it to happen continuously to a 2yo. Keep your DD away, without being judgemental on the 4yo.

To me it sounds like he’s role-playing how his parents treat him behind closed doors when they don’t need to keep up their own disinterested parent act.

Really important to keep your DD away, the foundations of her sense of self, ego, esteem and boundaries are being formed now. Part of that is confidence your care givers step in when you need them.

I don’t think there is necessarily anything really bad about him at all.

If you wouldn't put 'repeated and determined attempts to strangle a toddler' in the 'really bad' category, I'd hate to see what actually would cross your threshold of acceptability

It’s more than a 4 year old doesn’t understand the seriousness of that. He’s a child. A very young child. He doesn’t understand cause and effect, clearly. Unless you genuinely think he’s Ted Bundy reincarnated 🙄

He may just be a very full on willful bossy child but it wouldn't surprise if he had SEN, you say it sometimes seems like he's deaf and it may be that he's so absorbed in what he's doing that he doesn't hear, my ds with ASD is like this when he's absorbed in playing something or really focusing on something it can seem like he's deaf - it's an auditory thing. He may also actually think he is being kind and helpful when he is roughly shoving a cup in your dd's face. He might also really like all the noise she makes when she is upset by him and not comprehend what is going on, thinking he likes it so she must too. You say he shouts a lot too so there may be something auditory going on there. You also say he says things like she must sit on the chair or she must follow what he perceives as 'the rules' and do what he says, that black and white idea of what she has to do (as well as all the rest of it) just makes me wonder about ASD.

All of which is irrelevant when the OPs child is being hurt.

yes it may add context, but it makes not one jot of difference to the fact that the child’s parents are supervising him sufficiently to prevent him harming other more vulnerable children, and it should not influence OP at all in the steps she must take to Protect her child from harm.

Every thread like this descends into people diagnosing SEN. It isn't relevant to the actual issue (a child being put in danger of serious harm) and parents like this are unlikely to be accepting of it being suggested to them that their child might have additional needs. It isn't OP's job (or even appropriate) to suggest to them that they get him assessed, nor it is her responsibility to judge the risk of harm differently just because one party might be neurodiverse. It comes across as incredibly invalidating (and I say that as an ND person).

I would have left after he put things around your daughter's neck.

@ForestFae the issue though is that the parents are not taking his attempts at strangulation seriously. That needs major consequences.

It doesn't matter if he has sn. His parents need to closely supervise to prevent unsafe behaviour. We still have to closely supervise teenage ds for that reason.

My son is as ‘spirited’ as they come but he would never behave anything like Alex. This is really quite alarming and abnormal behaviour. I would cut the holiday short and go home.

he has tried to strangle your daughter with a belt and you’re still there?!

Yep, it would be nice if people stopped saying "he might have SEN". One of my children has SEN and he wouldn't have behaved like this at aged 4. Because we parented him and helped him learn, from very small, how to be gentle and play nicely with others.

It's not relevant. No one is intervening with this child, if the parents won't/can't then the OP will have to in order keep her child safe.

Ok, so you're stuck there.

Watch your daughter like a hawk and intervene every single time.
Your relatives are in denial but if you keep intervening and saying ' no, that not acceptable' or words to that effect, they might take the hint.

Never leave her with this child again.

10 days is too long to stay with anyone. 2 nights max.

This is not normal 'boy' behaviour, this is a child who does not have effective boundaries. As you say he is threatened with stuff but nothing happens. We had a neighbour who had a child like this who was rougher than you describe and literally punched other toddlers in the face. In the end I just had to tell the mother straight that my child couldn't play with hers any more as he was too physical. Boys don't have to be like this so this is lazy of the granny to suggest so.

This will not end well. If you say something the other parents will be offended. I would make your excuses (poorly dog?) and leave ASAP. I feel for George too...

I would rent your own place next time...

God I agree about 10 days being too long! We have learned 4 days max with other families and that’s ones with lovely kids!

I honestly can't understand why you are letting this happen. I would be finding local accommodation to move into and meanwhile physically preventing this little boy coming lose enough to touch my daughter. It takes seconds for a little one to get a life changing injury. FFS put a stop to this not - not tomorrow, now.

Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands

No, just no. I have girls, we have boy cousins and friends... I have never seen anything like this. I wouldn't subject any small chid to this be it a boy or a girl.

I wouldn't mince my words either. You little girl has no agency here. You need to protect her.

Falling out with a family would be way down my list of concerns I am afraid. Op I see you are stuck there so you really do have a problem. I think two things....where is your husband/partner in all this? I think that you (or you partner) need to be between your daughter and this boy AT ALL TIMES as its obvious that you can't trust the other adults. I also think that you need to have a conversation with the in laws about the behaviour. Obvs you will make it as calm and non aggressive as you can but I can't see any way its going to go down well. It may end up having to happen before you leave but you may choose to leave it either until the end of your stay or until you are home again. Please please be careful

You may be stuck there but you have to step in, loudly, and remove your daughter from his presence, every time. I wouldn't be letting them play at all.

I'm sort of wondering what kind of parenting he is subjected to, as he sounds almost like he is trying to assert authority in the way a horribly dominant adult might. That's not really the point though. He will seriously injure her if you keep allowing them to play.

I would be extremely vocal to his parents. My mum had a friend with a son the same age as me who behaved this way. After one final trip away, they fell out and never spoke again because she kept dismissing his violence. My mum has her moments but I'm very glad she stepped in as he really did hurt and frighten me and I still remember it 40 years later.

Picking up a younger child a bit annoyingly and misjudging if they are enjoying it sounds in normal range, but the pillow and scarf/belt definitely not. Where on earth has he got those ideas from? Are his parents into bondage and has he seen stuff he's imitating? Vv odd.

My nephew used to do this to my dd.

@Sceptre86 Trying to suffocate with a pillow and strangle with a belt?

@Fudgeball123 10 days is a perfectly normal length of time to stay with family abroad. Our family all stay with one another. It is only some British people who think it is strange to stay with family. They are your family, not distant friends.

family who does nothing about a child who has tried to strangle and suffocate their daughter?

If you really can't leave, although I would explore every option to do so - earlier flights, alternative accommodation, etc., then you are going to have to watch your daughter like a hawk whenever Alex is around her and that means not taking your eyes off her at all. However, I think it is high time you stopped being so wishy-washy and stood up for your daughter and tell the parents, Alex and the mother in law in no uncertain terms that what is being done to your daughter is NOT acceptable and you won't tolerate it anymore.

Alex’s parents seem to think most of this behaviour comes from a desire to help people, and they are always going on about how caring he is, (eg. when he picks my DD up it’s because he wants to help her walk, when he snatches her water cup and presses it to her face he’s trying to help her drink, etc., and it’s just that he’s too young to know when to stop.) But I am inclined to suspect they’re a bit misty-eyed and just trying to put a positive spin on everything he does. For a start, he’s so aggressive and shouty when trying to “help” my DD that I struggle to see it as “caring”.

When his parents come out with this guff say calmly and firmly that hurting your daughter, forcing his 'help' on her, shouting and being aggressive towards her is NOT caring, it's the polar opposite and either they deal with it or you will and insist he doesn't interact with your daughter until his behaviour improves drastically.