to think my nephew’s bad behaviour isn’t acceptable?

[KarenOLantern]

I have a DD (2) who was born in lockdown so I didn’t make any mum friends, none of my friends have kids, so I am clueless as to what to expect/how to react to other children’s behaviour and would really appreciate other perspectives here, plus ideas on how to respond.

We have two nephews on my DH’s side (both 4, not brothers) who live very far away, so we see them about 2-3 times a year. One of them (let’s call him George) is fine. The other (Alex) was a really kind and sweet toddler, but I am struggling to see anything positive about his behaviour over the last year, and I don’t know if I am being unreasonable by expecting too much from such a young kid, or if I’m right to think his behaviour isn’t great.

We are currently 5 days into a 10-day stay with Alex and his parents, and I am not exaggerating when I say I don’t think he has been pleasant to my DD for more than 5 minutes at a time. We were told he was really excited to see her and he talks about her all the time, which I am sure is true, but his idea of playing with her involves:

• roughly picking her up and carrying her around, no matter how much she cries, tells him to stop, or the adults tell him not to because he’s hurting her and it’s dangerous;

• pushing her down and sitting on top of her (again, ignoring her crying, and repeating it after adults have told him not to);

• whatever she’s doing, he has to annoy her somehow. If she’s playing with a toy, he'll snatch it off her/push her off it. If she’s drinking water he’ll snatch her cup and try to force-feed it to her (pressing the cup really hard into her face and hurting her). If she’s on a chair he’ll pull her off roughly, while shouting at her; if she climbs off the chair he shouts “No! You’ve got to sit on the chair!” and lifts her back onto it.

• He shouts and screams at her if she isn’t doing what he thinks she should be doing (which always seems to be the opposite of whatever she is currently doing).

• Several times I have had to physically stop him from putting a cushion/duvet on her face and sitting on it.

• Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands.

-Whenever he is physically prevented from any of this behaviour he screams very loudly, swings his limbs around and throws things.

When my DD is obviously distressed/in danger I step in physically, although I have also been trying to encourage her to shout "stop" , but she hasn't yet. While all this is going on, Alex's parents are usually there telling him to stop, but he pays them very little mind. They often threaten punishments, but I have yet to see one actually happen.

My MIL seems to think this is just “normal boy behaviour”… except that the other cousin George never behaves like this at all. He can be noisy and chaotic of course, but I’ve never seen him be aggressive or purposefully hurt or annoy another child like Alex seems to almost constantly. (It’s also worth noting, Alex behaves in a similar manner with George too, but as they are the same age/size George can stand up for himself much better.)

Alex’s parents seem to think most of this behaviour comes from a desire to help people, and they are always going on about how caring he is, (eg. when he picks my DD up it’s because he wants to help her walk, when he snatches her water cup and presses it to her face he’s trying to help her drink, etc., and it’s just that he’s too young to know when to stop.) But I am inclined to suspect they’re a bit misty-eyed and just trying to put a positive spin on everything he does. For a start, he’s so aggressive and shouty when trying to “help” my DD that I struggle to see it as “caring”. When there’s no way to put a positive spin on something he’s done, his parents blame it on being hungry or tired or a tummy ache, (but if that’s the case then he’s been hungry and tired almost constantly for the last 5 days, despite eating and sleeping at normal times…).

I just feel like I’m in a bit of an alternate universe, as I keep seeing these patterns of unpleasant behaviour where Alex seems to be constantly, and purposefully, trying to hurt or annoy the other two children, but the other adults in the family seem completely blind to it.

So yeah, any perspectives welcome please. Is this really within the bounds of normal 4-year-old boy behaviour? Am I being too precious with my DD? Will he just naturally grow out of behaving like this? How would you respond if you were Alex’s parents? How would you respond if you were me? TIA

Just leave if she’s not safe. What message are you teaching her that you won’t protect her and she’s got to put up with stuff. It’s ok to teach her to say stop but she’s so little.
go home! Who cares what the family think.

Should mention that my nephews behaviour wasn't as extreme as yours, more the hitting, grabbing toys and pushing type of behaviour.

Am I understanding this right? He has tried to tighten a belt around your DD’s neck, and 11% of readers think you are being unreasonable?! Wow!

Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands.

This and the cushions and duvet over your daughter's head and then trying to sit on her face is seriously, seriously concerning, what the hell are his parents doing to allow and excuse this?

Go home now, you are endangering your daughter by staying it only needs you to relax your guard for one minute and the consequences would be horrendous.

Personally I'd tell them and mother in law exactly why we were leaving - their complete failure to control their child and the danger this is putting your daughter in and the fact you cannot relax for one second as you have to constantly watch their child's interaction with your daughter, but that's me and I would have said something very harsh before now to all of them.

We have had almost identical experiences with nephew and dd. As a PP pointed out, this is very challenging behaviour that may well the result of additional needs. But the real problem is that the parents are not managing the behaviour. They are focusing on his intentions - he wants to play, he wants to cuddle, he wants to help - and not his behaviour.

In our case, dd the same age but simply didn't know how to respond when he hit her or shouted or whatever. We would speak firmly to nephew but as his parents were always right there, we couldn't impose consequences. At best they would talk to him but it made no difference and on the day we were all then supposed to.axt like it was fine.

Eventually we decided we were teaching dd that if someone hurts her, she can't make a fuss if it inconveniences someone. And that certainly isn't a lesson we wanted her to learn. Sp the next time, we got up and left. The child's parents clearly thought we were being ott and precious.

The boy also has stopped hitting dd....

There are a million other issues with this family. But what it comes down to is bad parenting.

Take your dd and go hime. If you don't want to cause fights just say that nephew means we'll but it scares dd and you worry that a mistake could be made..

Op are you still there? Hopefully you are driving home now!

Dear god, why are 11% saying OP is being unreasonable? Why are people interpreting this violent behaviour as “trying to help”? In what way could strangulation be “helping”?

She’s so little and he’s hurting her, really hurting her, and scaring her. He’s doing violent things that could seriously injure or kill her. Why he’s doing it doesn’t matter. Your duty as a parent is to protect your child, not try to educate your nephew. Take her away from him and keep him away until his behaviour improves. Poor little girl. Her welfare is far more important than trying not to offend your wet, ridiculous family.

These behaviours are not normal for boys at all. I don’t have DSs myself (I have 2 DDs) but I’ve seen 4 DNs grow up, as well as friends’ DSs. A couple of them have been a handful as well as mischievous. But their parents have always intervened if they’ve gone too far (as in biting or pinching, nothing more than that).

In your shoes, I would leave!

The things you describe are shocking. They are absolutely outside the range of what I would consider acceptable for my child to experience, particularly such a young child. Attempted strangling can cause unseen internal damage that may result in long-term harm and even death. The ongoing psychological impact of such an experience is also concerning, especially given the age of your DD. Even if it is acceptable to someone else, it doesn't need to be acceptable to YOU. Since this is your first child you are figuring out how to trust your instincts, so let me reassure you that your instinct to be concerned about what this child is doing to your DD is spot on.

This would be my thought process if this was my child.

Your first priority is to get your DD away from the physical and psychological harm, so find alternative accommodation ASAP. If it feels easier, make up an excuse as to why you are leaving, just do whatever it takes to get your DD out of there. She needs to be away from someone who is repeatedly hurting her. It is not the job of such a young child to learn to be on guard or protect herself. The lesson she is learning is how to tolerate abuse, and that this kind of harm is normal and acceptable. Especially when the adults around are making excuses and acting as if this is normal and fine. As you say, - you are in an alternative universe.

Next, you decide how to manage visits. For instance, decide to-meet these relatives for lunch or for an activity of only a couple of hours where your DD is sitting on your lap. You need to be able to instantly deflect any physical attacks. If he tries to 'help her' by putting a drink towards her face, you physically push the cup away from her face before it touches her and say 'no' or 'no thank you' - in a very firm voice. You need to do this every single time so that he never has the opportunity to harm her again. This also teaches your daughter it is not ok for others to harm her. There is no need to yell or shout, the main thing is to consistently protect her and it is better if you can remain calm and in control. She is too little to protect herself from these aggressive repeated attacks, so this is your job. I would not allow her any free play near him where he may harm her. Since she is two you can carry her if she needs to go for a nappy change or whatever, so keep the visit short and go to a playground before or after, so she can do some running around somewhere safe. You can explain to her, 'I'm going to keep you in my arms like a baby bird stays cosy in the nest up high in the tree' to give her an image that helps her understand you are holding her to keep her safe. She will be able to understand exactly why. If you are unable to protect her from his attempts to harm her, or it becomes too exhausting or ridiculous, or your DD doesn't want to stay on your lap or be carried by you, I would decide not to see these relatives for a while. You don't need to shut the door on the relationships but you can take a break from seeing them. You get to decide if and when you try again and what the conditions will be. If on the visit he is able to show that his behaviour has changed, then great, you can respond accordingly.

Your most important responsibility as a parent is to keep your child safe from harm, so you decide who and when they will see and how you will manage those visits.

Once your child is safe and you've made decisions around how to manage the situation, your next challenge will be managing your relationship with these family members. How the parents of the other child choose to manage the situation is their responsibility and you have no control over them. Based on how they have minimised his behaviour and harm it is possible they will react by blaming you or saying you are being 'oversensitive.' So if it is easier to make excuses as to why you won't be able to see them, go for it. If you want to give the actual reason you can say something like 'I don't feel safe/relaxed when my DD is being hit/pushed/strangled', and then regardless of what they say, you can say 'it's just how I feel at the moment', and 'this is just what I feel I need to do.' If they can respect this then there is hope for the relationship. Another approach is to say 'It's not okay for Alex to strangle/push/hurt DD so visits will need to be like this so I can make sure DD doesn't get stranged/pushed/suffocated/hurt'. And you can also say 'I hope things do improve' but you don't need to get into a discussion about what they ought to do, just keep repeating the phrase you've chosen.

You do not need to be liked by anyone - your priority is to protect your child. Family do not get to repeatedly hurt and harm just because they are family. Once you've had children it is not uncommon for family relationships to change and sometimes relationships need to end. It is sad but it is life and your DDs safety is not worth compromising. In the process of letting go of people who do not respect you or your child, you will make space for new respectful and caring people to come into your life.

This is not normal behaviour for a 4 year old, they are quite capable of understanding that you can hurt others if you are too rough, and understanding that you stop when someone tells you 'no.'
It is not 'boy' behaviour at all that is complete nonsense.

I saw similar behaviour in my nephew at that age, and he went on to be a very disturbed child an exhibited some very worrying behaviours (setting fires, obsession with guns that kind of thing) I'm not saying that is the case with your nephew and like your in laws my sister set no boundaries with him (He threatened to stab my dog when I visited once, he deliberately tried to trip up my 90 year old mother).

Your nephew isn;t trying to help 'when he puts a belt around your Dds neck or puts a cushion on her face - help her with what? He's trying to hurt her.
Now in his defence he is also a child who will have been affected by lock down and has maybe missed social integration and is behind in his development.
But your concern is to keep your Dd safe.

Personally I would leave and make it very clear why I was doing so. If you have to stay longer then you and your DH need to become very proactive in protecting your DD. You say 'no' very firmly at him whenever he tries anything, if he takes her toy move in swiftly remove it form him give it back to her and say 'no, she is playing with it' . She can't stand up for herself, you need to act fast and very very firmly, to show him and his parents/grandparents that you will not tolerate your child being victimised and bullied. Its a deal breaker either they seek help with his very aggressive behaviour or you will not be visiting. If it causes a fall out so be it. Your Dd is more important than your in laws.

I think you should leave for DD's sake, with any excuse you can think of because it all sounds very upsetting. His parents' attitude towards this is pathetic - this young boy is crying out for some actual discipline and there is only so much you can do, especially if you're not around your nephew that often.

The adults present need to supervise closely enough to stop this happening and if that isn't enough you have to stop visiting

Thank you very much to everyone for all the replies, I’ve read every one of them and taken all the comments on board. A lot of it is confirming what I already knew deep down, but I just felt like I was going a bit mad surrounded by all these people just watching these things happen and smiling fondly at how “caring” Alex is, or else telling him “no” but not actually taking it any further when he repeats it. Also I did wonder if some degree of “rough and tumble” should be expected when playing with other children, but you have all helped me to understand that no, my DD should not have to put up with any of this. Also at first she did sometimes giggle when he picked her up or rolled around with her on the sofa, so I didn’t want to spoil her fun, but obviously it is a MASSIVE problem that he doesn’t seem to recognise/care when she starts crying, and just flat out ignores anything adults say to him (I did at one point start to wonder if he was deaf. That’s how little notice he takes of anything adults say to him).
So thank you, DD will not be putting up with it any more, and he will not be touching her anymore.

To all the people saying to go home, I didn’t mention in the first post (because I thought it might be too outing, but sod it, it’s not like any of them will be on Mumsnet), all of DH’s family live in a different country, so we can’t really leave as we’ve got nowhere else to go until our flight home, although we’re going to a big family party this weekend to a much bigger house so it’ll be easier to keep him away from DD at least. Also, Alex has been in school all this week until 5:30 so he’s only been around a couple of hours each evening. But we'll get through this weekend and then think about how we'll deal with subsequent visits (if they happen at all).

Firstly do not fall out with family over a preschooler being naught.
It's pretty obvious that thislittle boy is used to being the centre of attention and has had his nose put out of joint by your dd being the little cute one.
Please try to see it from this little ones pov and praise up his good behaviour and all the clever things he can do that your dd can't yet.
You also need to be more proactive and watchful on protecting your child.why on earth don't you step I'm sooner? At 2 years old. ESpecially in an unfamiliar place. You need to watch kids this age like a hawk.Alex should have not been able to get a belt round her neck before you intervened

Sorry about typos , phone putting random fullstops.

I would be booking an air BnB and not visiting until Alex learns his behaviour is not okay.

He's not learning as his parents and your MIL are enabling it.

Ad you can't leave I recommend simply picking up dd and leaving the room.whwnever he behaves this way. He will cry. His parents will think you are being precious. But its OK.

No that is not normal.

Normal 4yo behaviour is bossy and can be too physical (if that's their personality) but not to the extremes you are describing. More to the point if exerting their authority and testing boundaries.

Tbh I would leave. It doesn't sound safe for your dd.

I would avoid him until he (hopefully) grows out of it.

I would be booking an air BnB and not visiting until Alex learns his behaviour is not okay.

This 100%! Your daughter is not safe!

I don’t think you are being unreasonable, but I don’t think there is necessarily anything really bad about him at all.

It is parents who sound very difficult indeed in not keeping him away from your DD.

It must be ruining your holiday.

fUNNYfACE36 · Today 15:39
Yes to this, OP.

Either leave, or do not leave your DD alone with him ever.

Don't parents discipline children or punish them any more?

This. This is not normal behaviour even for a 4 year old. I'm surprised his parents are not alarmed at this behaviour, I would worry he would grow up to be a bully or worse ,especially with all the choking, trying to suffocate, antagonizing, etc.

I'd be much more hands-on protecting DD throughout, stressful though it may be his behaviour sounds dangerous and she's only two. Time to be much more outspoken to those parents. "It's not funny to hurt other children" etc.. Point out it's not the first time he's hurt her and you'd like them to intervene.
You are staying with in-laws.. what does DH think?