to think my nephew’s bad behaviour isn’t acceptable?

[KarenOLantern]

I have a DD (2) who was born in lockdown so I didn’t make any mum friends, none of my friends have kids, so I am clueless as to what to expect/how to react to other children’s behaviour and would really appreciate other perspectives here, plus ideas on how to respond.

We have two nephews on my DH’s side (both 4, not brothers) who live very far away, so we see them about 2-3 times a year. One of them (let’s call him George) is fine. The other (Alex) was a really kind and sweet toddler, but I am struggling to see anything positive about his behaviour over the last year, and I don’t know if I am being unreasonable by expecting too much from such a young kid, or if I’m right to think his behaviour isn’t great.

We are currently 5 days into a 10-day stay with Alex and his parents, and I am not exaggerating when I say I don’t think he has been pleasant to my DD for more than 5 minutes at a time. We were told he was really excited to see her and he talks about her all the time, which I am sure is true, but his idea of playing with her involves:

• roughly picking her up and carrying her around, no matter how much she cries, tells him to stop, or the adults tell him not to because he’s hurting her and it’s dangerous;

• pushing her down and sitting on top of her (again, ignoring her crying, and repeating it after adults have told him not to);

• whatever she’s doing, he has to annoy her somehow. If she’s playing with a toy, he'll snatch it off her/push her off it. If she’s drinking water he’ll snatch her cup and try to force-feed it to her (pressing the cup really hard into her face and hurting her). If she’s on a chair he’ll pull her off roughly, while shouting at her; if she climbs off the chair he shouts “No! You’ve got to sit on the chair!” and lifts her back onto it.

• He shouts and screams at her if she isn’t doing what he thinks she should be doing (which always seems to be the opposite of whatever she is currently doing).

• Several times I have had to physically stop him from putting a cushion/duvet on her face and sitting on it.

• Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands.

-Whenever he is physically prevented from any of this behaviour he screams very loudly, swings his limbs around and throws things.

When my DD is obviously distressed/in danger I step in physically, although I have also been trying to encourage her to shout "stop" , but she hasn't yet. While all this is going on, Alex's parents are usually there telling him to stop, but he pays them very little mind. They often threaten punishments, but I have yet to see one actually happen.

My MIL seems to think this is just “normal boy behaviour”… except that the other cousin George never behaves like this at all. He can be noisy and chaotic of course, but I’ve never seen him be aggressive or purposefully hurt or annoy another child like Alex seems to almost constantly. (It’s also worth noting, Alex behaves in a similar manner with George too, but as they are the same age/size George can stand up for himself much better.)

Alex’s parents seem to think most of this behaviour comes from a desire to help people, and they are always going on about how caring he is, (eg. when he picks my DD up it’s because he wants to help her walk, when he snatches her water cup and presses it to her face he’s trying to help her drink, etc., and it’s just that he’s too young to know when to stop.) But I am inclined to suspect they’re a bit misty-eyed and just trying to put a positive spin on everything he does. For a start, he’s so aggressive and shouty when trying to “help” my DD that I struggle to see it as “caring”. When there’s no way to put a positive spin on something he’s done, his parents blame it on being hungry or tired or a tummy ache, (but if that’s the case then he’s been hungry and tired almost constantly for the last 5 days, despite eating and sleeping at normal times…).

I just feel like I’m in a bit of an alternate universe, as I keep seeing these patterns of unpleasant behaviour where Alex seems to be constantly, and purposefully, trying to hurt or annoy the other two children, but the other adults in the family seem completely blind to it.

So yeah, any perspectives welcome please. Is this really within the bounds of normal 4-year-old boy behaviour? Am I being too precious with my DD? Will he just naturally grow out of behaving like this? How would you respond if you were Alex’s parents? How would you respond if you were me? TIA

At the age of four his parents should be enforcing punishments or at least time out and stickin to it. Empty threats just show him that he can do what he wants with no consequence.
I would personally be going home and explaining why.

Tough one OP. Going home as suggested will have long term impacts on all of your relationships, so I can see that’s hard to do. The strangling is really worrying. A kid kept trying to to that to DD at nursery and I had to take his grubby little hands off her myself a couple of times. Words were had!! In your shoes I couldn’t keep quiet. But it will blow up and that’s the price you might have to pay.

I would feign a stomach bug and pack up and go.

No need to mention the boys behaviour - presumably the parents know and don't actually give a shit.

I have three boys - one who is disabled - and they would all treat a younger child with kindness and love.

This child sounds terrifying.

I have 3 children and 6 grandchildren and have also had lots of interaction with friends' preschoolers and preschoolers at toddler group. Alex's behaviour is definitely not normal and shouldn't be tolerated. Four year old boys can be very 'physical' but responsible parents will be doing all in their power to show them how to interact in a kind way with other children.
Your little girl needs to be cared for and protected from him or it will affect how she feels with other children. It may make her afraid of them - particularly as she's a Lockdown baby and you have few friends with children. Me? I would talk to the parents and tell them that their son is lovely but he can be a little overexhuberant (😬) and physical and your daughter will become afraid of him if he continues to behave in this way. Then if things don't change I would spend the next 10 days in another place. And remember - Alex is your nephew, but your tiny daughter is your number 1 priority.
Best of luck!

I have a DS and babysat for my nephews and also for money fir various children as a teenager. One child I used to look after occasionally seemed out of control when I turned up, he was always well behaved for me. But his Mum was always threatening something never carrying that threat out. He used to apparently hurt his younger brother given the chance. She used to tell me, he never did it when I was there, He is in his early thirties now, through others back in my home town I have found out he has been in prison.

There is something up with this kid and parents. Don’t worry about offending anyone, protect your DD.

I have two boys- this is absolutely categorically NOT "normal boy behaviour" and although both were energetic children at that age, neither of my sons did anything remotely similar to this weird, aggressive behaviour exhibited by this child. Its not normal and I'd be leaving.

And by the same token why aren’t his parents doing the same thing ?

Just a flip side - my son is like this and almost 6 but has sen needs. He wants to play, he just doesn't know how to and being the parent, it's heartbreaking. There's enough judgement out there and as parents, we feel the guilt, hard.

However, I completely get how hard it must be when you're just trying to keep your baby safe.
I'd have a word with the parents and explain how you feel because that's ok, you're allowed to feel upset/ angry etc. I know the onus isn't on you but keep interactions between them in small bursts x

Completely agree with this. A child is still a child and behaviour is communication. Those who have kids that don't display this behaviour have no idea how difficult it is to be the parent of a child who does display those behaviours.

Well yes, obviously his parents should step in. But they aren’t. So op and her dh need to otherwise their dd could end up seriously injured or worse.

I would go home, and tell his parents you won't be coming back until they can do something about his behaviour. They need to teach him how to treat a young child gently, not find excuses for everything he does.

Maybe when Alex is in bed you should speak to the parents and say you’re concerned that some of the behaviour has been completely dangerous and it’s not acceptable. Don’t leave her for a second unattended. My children have never behaved like that, and I’d be certainly giving punishments not empty threats if they did

Absolutely not normal behaviour, particularly the attempted strangulation and cushion on face. I’d be quite concerned about where he has learnt these behaviours and what he is being exposed to behind closed doors.

I have a friend who never disciplined her DS(7) and right from a toddler the normal toddler behaviours quickly became extreme and escalated. He would almost constantly attack my DS and friend would just laugh and say ‘he’s like your irritating little brother.’ He would constantly bite, hit, spit on, shove, hair pull, attempt to eye gauge, snatch toys and then hit DS with them, try and push off high playground equipment, grab his head and smack it into the ground, push him off his scooter, grab his food and throw it or shove it in his own mouth, push him off the trampoline, and the list goes on and on. Today at 7 his behaviour is horrific and I cut ties at 5 to prevent her DS being near my DS(7). You reap what you sow sometimes.

As a pp said if you can’t face the fallout from telling them truthfully why you are leaving then fake stomach bugs/work need one of you back urgently etc. Then in future never stay in the same house as them (and don’t host them yourselves either) and micromanage any interactions with them to minimise contact time.

This sounds like a child that’s on the spectrum because he’s the same with the other child. He sounds like he’s struggling massively socially. He is probably very excited when he knows they are coming but doesn’t know how to interact with them in what we consider a “normal” way. Having said that it’s not going to help your daughter. I think you should say something and suggest they take their son to their GP. If there is something up then they can develop strategies for when visitors come. Xx

I agree with people about protecting DD. And I back suggestions to leave if DD is suffering. Of course DD is your absolute priority and you send her don't have to tolerate this behaviour.

But I disagree with some of the harshness to the boy. He's only 4. He isn't trying to suffocate anyone. Not reacting to his parents, trying to control the situation, becoming distressed when he's stopped doing what he wants...extreme behaviour..all speaks to something else going on. He's 4, not 14. He needs to be told consistently and given much better boundaries but some the posts makes it sound like this 4 year old is some sort of killer. Also I hate the "he's not normal" shit. He is a small child and he is struggling. He needs help, not judgment.

(I am bias btw. I have a 3 year old boy who hits me daily and every day I consistently tell him to stop. He is not trying to hurt me, he is deeply frustrated and has development delays)

Autism runs in my family, I can assure you that although accidents happen, we have never had anyone trying to strangle a toddler with a string or trying to put a pillow over someone else’s face. In fact, at that age we were far more likely to be wholly ignored than chased repeatedly until it ended in tears.

I wish people stopped blaming every bad behaviour on the “spectrum”.

I have 2 boys under 5. They are hard work, like lots of physical play and climbing the furniture. They are also very kind for most of the day, look out for each other and their (girl ) cousins and generally play very well with all other children that I've seen. Putting it down to 'just normal 4yr old boy behaviour ' or boys will be boys is not right.
It sounds like this child has a serious lack of discipline, and possibly other issues. I would leave early and I would discipline him if his parents wouldn't!! My eldest put a ribbon round his brothers neck and pulled a long time ago and I was extremely clear that it was never ok, what could happen and he's never done it since.

@Sheesh89 i think people have actually been okay and separated the issues, yes he’s a child but no the behaviour is bordering on dangerous for the other child. It’s not his fault but it’s not ok and it’s not safe.

@Planterina22 Perhaps. I agree it doesn't sound safe and I would take my kid away if I couldn't guarantee her/his safety.

It sounds like his parents are in denial. But I know that awful feeling when your kid is being aggressive and you're trying to deal with it but you know it's going to seriously escalate

Maybe all the parents on here with "normal" children who don't hit or kick have just done a better job. Who knows. But I feel like I'm being v consistent, very clear, patient and repeat it all nax yet still my DS hits me.

Sorry, but nephew sounds as if he needs intervention from an external agency; repeated, energetic attempts to strangle or suffocate another child? Absolutely not normal, and in my view extremely concerning. Take your child home for her own safety.

This child is an abuse victim, acting out what has been done to him. Go home immediately.

You are NOT unreasonable! Not in the slightest! When my DD was around 18 months, my so called BF's son also exhibited the same behaviour. It's disturbing to watch others children almost abuse your own, whilst you feel if you say anything to question the behaviour, you are made to feel like you're over-reacting, or an over protective parent! To say it's a boy thing is wrong. Just pure wrong. Are we not in a time were we should be telling our sons to treat girls and women with more respect? Well, quite frankly, it starts now.
Please don't take anyone's rubbish. You stand up for your daughter, and don't let anyone make you feel bad about it.

It's always hard to approach others about their child's behaviour. As a consequence I 'lost ' that so called friend. But who cares? My daughter is now a teenager and knows what a bully looks like.

Good luck . Peace and Love
Xxx

You deserve better play dates in your life!
So does your daughter. You shouldn't put this all on yourself. X
I think too many people here agree that this behaviour is not acceptable. So ask the question; wtf is going on with this child and wtf are they NOT doing about it or are they clearly in denial?

My son has ADHD and im constantly apologising and feeling awkward around other mums because of the impulsive things he does. I remember when my DSIL and kids came to stay he hit one of them and his behaviour was unreal. When we had planned to go somewhere nice, I sat in with him the whole morning, talked to him about what he had done and why people were upset. In-laws we’re saying the same ‘it’s typical boy behaviour’ etc, and I’m sure we’re judging me (as they always do) for spoiling the family day out.

I agree to an extent (all children don’t have a theory of mind and brain hasn’t developed, you can’t expect perfection) but when your behaviour affects others, you have to teach that it also has consequences, ADHD or not.

Exactly this.

The mumsnet overdramatic pearl clutching is ridiculous. He’s going to be a serial killer! Obnoxious little shit! He tried to kill her!