to think my nephew’s bad behaviour isn’t acceptable?

[KarenOLantern]

I have a DD (2) who was born in lockdown so I didn’t make any mum friends, none of my friends have kids, so I am clueless as to what to expect/how to react to other children’s behaviour and would really appreciate other perspectives here, plus ideas on how to respond.

We have two nephews on my DH’s side (both 4, not brothers) who live very far away, so we see them about 2-3 times a year. One of them (let’s call him George) is fine. The other (Alex) was a really kind and sweet toddler, but I am struggling to see anything positive about his behaviour over the last year, and I don’t know if I am being unreasonable by expecting too much from such a young kid, or if I’m right to think his behaviour isn’t great.

We are currently 5 days into a 10-day stay with Alex and his parents, and I am not exaggerating when I say I don’t think he has been pleasant to my DD for more than 5 minutes at a time. We were told he was really excited to see her and he talks about her all the time, which I am sure is true, but his idea of playing with her involves:

• roughly picking her up and carrying her around, no matter how much she cries, tells him to stop, or the adults tell him not to because he’s hurting her and it’s dangerous;

• pushing her down and sitting on top of her (again, ignoring her crying, and repeating it after adults have told him not to);

• whatever she’s doing, he has to annoy her somehow. If she’s playing with a toy, he'll snatch it off her/push her off it. If she’s drinking water he’ll snatch her cup and try to force-feed it to her (pressing the cup really hard into her face and hurting her). If she’s on a chair he’ll pull her off roughly, while shouting at her; if she climbs off the chair he shouts “No! You’ve got to sit on the chair!” and lifts her back onto it.

• He shouts and screams at her if she isn’t doing what he thinks she should be doing (which always seems to be the opposite of whatever she is currently doing).

• Several times I have had to physically stop him from putting a cushion/duvet on her face and sitting on it.

• Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands.

-Whenever he is physically prevented from any of this behaviour he screams very loudly, swings his limbs around and throws things.

When my DD is obviously distressed/in danger I step in physically, although I have also been trying to encourage her to shout "stop" , but she hasn't yet. While all this is going on, Alex's parents are usually there telling him to stop, but he pays them very little mind. They often threaten punishments, but I have yet to see one actually happen.

My MIL seems to think this is just “normal boy behaviour”… except that the other cousin George never behaves like this at all. He can be noisy and chaotic of course, but I’ve never seen him be aggressive or purposefully hurt or annoy another child like Alex seems to almost constantly. (It’s also worth noting, Alex behaves in a similar manner with George too, but as they are the same age/size George can stand up for himself much better.)

Alex’s parents seem to think most of this behaviour comes from a desire to help people, and they are always going on about how caring he is, (eg. when he picks my DD up it’s because he wants to help her walk, when he snatches her water cup and presses it to her face he’s trying to help her drink, etc., and it’s just that he’s too young to know when to stop.) But I am inclined to suspect they’re a bit misty-eyed and just trying to put a positive spin on everything he does. For a start, he’s so aggressive and shouty when trying to “help” my DD that I struggle to see it as “caring”. When there’s no way to put a positive spin on something he’s done, his parents blame it on being hungry or tired or a tummy ache, (but if that’s the case then he’s been hungry and tired almost constantly for the last 5 days, despite eating and sleeping at normal times…).

I just feel like I’m in a bit of an alternate universe, as I keep seeing these patterns of unpleasant behaviour where Alex seems to be constantly, and purposefully, trying to hurt or annoy the other two children, but the other adults in the family seem completely blind to it.

So yeah, any perspectives welcome please. Is this really within the bounds of normal 4-year-old boy behaviour? Am I being too precious with my DD? Will he just naturally grow out of behaving like this? How would you respond if you were Alex’s parents? How would you respond if you were me? TIA

@me4real if you read the post I added just a few seconds after it clarified that my nephews behaviour wasn't as extreme as what the op described. Mine would hit, grab toys, push and try to pull or sit on her. Op described her nephew as doing similar but also more extreme things like trying to suffocate.

You and your dh as 2 grown ass adults should be able to protect your dd from a preschooler! You guys do t seem to get that you must supervise toddlers all the time.Basic stuff!
OP can I ask if Alexsen

OP- can I ask whether Alex spends long hours in a nursery setting, or whether he did ask baby/toddler? have come across this kind of behaviour mostly in those circumstances

I have 2 kids and 4 grandchildren and no one has put a belt around someone neck or pillow on the face. My child wouldn't be around him alone and we would be going home now. He is trying to hurt your daughter not help.

Yes, I have noticed this about British people.

I think they've got the right idea to be honest. I am tearing my hair out by week 2 when my parents fly over to visit us. I would love for it to be culturally acceptable to put them up in a hotel near by.

Pretend play, imaginative play, role play is typical for 3-5 year olds. I doubt that his intention was to strangle the two year old.

It is more likely that he was caught up in an imaginative pretend play scenario where she was a puppy or a pony etc. putting a lead on her.

I have seen kids in this age group doing that. As the adult you have to step in immediately and say no, that is dangerous never tie something around someone’s neck. I’ve seen kids that age tying things around their own neck. Immediately step in, no that is dangerous, never tie something around your own neck.

They have no idea how dangerous it is. That is why supervision is important. That is why you make the environment safe by removal of objects that could be used dangerously by children or could potentially harm a child. Child proof the area, play space, home, etc.

Demonising this 4 year old is not ok and detracts from adult responsibility.

Sounds like he needs more training, as if left unsupervised could cause serious harm.

I have had to have a rule of ‘nothing around your neck’ as it’s so common in my 3 and 5 year olds’ play. Just yesterday I had to tell my 5 year old to take a cushion off her brother’s face- again. It’s normal and common, just needs supervision and repeated reminders!

People do not learn things immediately- it takes time. This boy doesn’t need some harsh discipline- he needs gentle, guided teaching about how to play with a young child and lots of verbal acknowledgment and praise when he gets it right. Firm reminders when he doesn’t- and out back on track with what he can do. Wasn’t his fault he was suddenly plunged into a long time of experiencing this- lots of shorter play dates would have been a lot easier for him too.

What’s your DH doing about all this? I’d show him this thread to demonstrate that this is not normal behaviour and he needs to support you and your DD. That means standing up to his relatives who are trying to minimise the nephew’s dangerous behaviour.

Do your DC then pull the scarf or belt as tight as possible/refuse to let go/have to have it prised from their hands? I truly hope not!

The Op doesn’t say he pulled the scarf or belt as tight as possible. It says he held on to it tightly and wouldn’t let go and that he pulled hard.

Is that because he is some kind of dangerous, murderous, deviant child? Or was it because it was being handled badly by the adults? Trying to prise it from him, take something from him without any explanation?

There should have been adult intervention before it got dangerous. Adequate supervision.
Communication and guidance.

Everything's always got to be "handled badly by the adults", it can never just be unacceptable behaviour from the child. He doesn't have to be a murderous deviant to be displaying behaviour that is unacceptable.

The OP says he put his full weight into it so I don't know what your point is. I don't think anybody is saying he is a murderous deviant, hyperbole helps nothing. He obviously does need clear boundaries and guidance which he doesn't seem to be getting, and OP's DD needs protecting from all of this behaviour, not stupid excuses from the rest of the adults.

HOME and ASAP. ALSO YOUR NEPHEW NEEDS AN APPOINTMENT WITH A PSYCHIATRIST OR DOCTOR.

I have a 2 year old daughter and am finding this really upsetting. Please pack up and go home or stay but stop allowing her to be subjected to violence. She must be terrified why are the adults not protecting her fgs you all need to get a grip.

OMG Alex’s parents sound EXACTLY like my nephew’s. Always saying stop and threatening consequences that NEVER once materialised. Unsurprisingly, it’s a bit late now he’s a teenager. Guess who currently screams at his parents if they ask him to revise for his A-levels…

My children are teenagers too but even they can tell that no boundaries leads you nowhere.

You are out of your tree allowing this bullying towards your daughter. Why in God's name have you not took her from this situation, you are her PROTECTOR and you are letting her down MASSIVELY

What is your husband doing whilst all this is going on? It’s his family, he should speak up and say something. I have a great relationship with my in laws etc but it’s because over the years if there’s an issue my husband deals with it respectfully, if the married member of the family gets involved then it lingers and isn’t as quickly resolved. You don’t need to fall out over children but you do need to create boundaries!

Ive got 3 boys - 3, 8 and 12. I do think it is in a boys nature to be more boisterous than girls; we however have always maintained boundaries with them all.
My eldest and second like a ruff and tumble with eachother (the little one does too) but they're always really gentle with other children. If it ever gets a bit out of hand; we call "time" and tell them that's enough. They are very aware tho when (for exaple) their 3yr old cousin (a girl) has had enough and they stop, by themselves, immediately.
YADNBU - it is not normal for him to be soo heavy handed and spiteful with your DD, especially while she's so little.
If his parents take no responsibility; there's not much else you can do. Just keep doing what you doing and don't leave her alone with him. If anyone pulls you up on it; just say he's getting spiteful and your fed up with it - I would.

YANBU

I have a very rambunctious 4 year old and an 18 month old. My 4 year old does get frustrated when my 18 month old doesn’t play as instructed and can be a little rough from time to time but is always firmly told no and, if necessary, removed from the situation whilst we explain why the behaviour was inappropriate.

I think some of what you describe is normal, like wanting the toy your daughter is playing with and being very directive and annoyed when the directions are not followed.

There are times when my 18 month old cries and my 4 year old continues and I have step in but there is very limited risk of physical harm to either child.

There is always going to be a learning curve, but at this age and with appropriate boundaries it shouldn’t take long to pick up.

Sounds like there needs to be more intervention from his parents and you just need to remove your child when possible.

I have no doubts that many boys have the urge to behave like this. Especially at just age 4. Especially to start with when learning that the amount of playing you can do with a toddler is very limited. However, quite clearly he is not able to stop acting like this when told that it isn’t acceptable. Instead of stopping when told and then not doing it again he is just doing what he wants and freaking out when told no which is not very fun for your DD. My DS was often boisterous with his younger sister but when told to stop he stopped and as he got older he learned what was and wasn’t acceptable without being told.

I think your daughter is in real danger here. Pack up and go home. Please.

If she's is getting hurt it's not the 4 year olds fault - it's yours! Say something or go home. Don't just sit back and let her get pushed around repeatedly.

We also have the nothing around necks rule - still and my kids are 9 and 11!

But I digress. Go home and make it clear why. If you don't this shit will carry on every time you see them.

I agree too. Go home. You need to protect your daughter.