to think my nephew’s bad behaviour isn’t acceptable?

[KarenOLantern]

I have a DD (2) who was born in lockdown so I didn’t make any mum friends, none of my friends have kids, so I am clueless as to what to expect/how to react to other children’s behaviour and would really appreciate other perspectives here, plus ideas on how to respond.

We have two nephews on my DH’s side (both 4, not brothers) who live very far away, so we see them about 2-3 times a year. One of them (let’s call him George) is fine. The other (Alex) was a really kind and sweet toddler, but I am struggling to see anything positive about his behaviour over the last year, and I don’t know if I am being unreasonable by expecting too much from such a young kid, or if I’m right to think his behaviour isn’t great.

We are currently 5 days into a 10-day stay with Alex and his parents, and I am not exaggerating when I say I don’t think he has been pleasant to my DD for more than 5 minutes at a time. We were told he was really excited to see her and he talks about her all the time, which I am sure is true, but his idea of playing with her involves:

• roughly picking her up and carrying her around, no matter how much she cries, tells him to stop, or the adults tell him not to because he’s hurting her and it’s dangerous;

• pushing her down and sitting on top of her (again, ignoring her crying, and repeating it after adults have told him not to);

• whatever she’s doing, he has to annoy her somehow. If she’s playing with a toy, he'll snatch it off her/push her off it. If she’s drinking water he’ll snatch her cup and try to force-feed it to her (pressing the cup really hard into her face and hurting her). If she’s on a chair he’ll pull her off roughly, while shouting at her; if she climbs off the chair he shouts “No! You’ve got to sit on the chair!” and lifts her back onto it.

• He shouts and screams at her if she isn’t doing what he thinks she should be doing (which always seems to be the opposite of whatever she is currently doing).

• Several times I have had to physically stop him from putting a cushion/duvet on her face and sitting on it.

• Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands.

-Whenever he is physically prevented from any of this behaviour he screams very loudly, swings his limbs around and throws things.

When my DD is obviously distressed/in danger I step in physically, although I have also been trying to encourage her to shout "stop" , but she hasn't yet. While all this is going on, Alex's parents are usually there telling him to stop, but he pays them very little mind. They often threaten punishments, but I have yet to see one actually happen.

My MIL seems to think this is just “normal boy behaviour”… except that the other cousin George never behaves like this at all. He can be noisy and chaotic of course, but I’ve never seen him be aggressive or purposefully hurt or annoy another child like Alex seems to almost constantly. (It’s also worth noting, Alex behaves in a similar manner with George too, but as they are the same age/size George can stand up for himself much better.)

Alex’s parents seem to think most of this behaviour comes from a desire to help people, and they are always going on about how caring he is, (eg. when he picks my DD up it’s because he wants to help her walk, when he snatches her water cup and presses it to her face he’s trying to help her drink, etc., and it’s just that he’s too young to know when to stop.) But I am inclined to suspect they’re a bit misty-eyed and just trying to put a positive spin on everything he does. For a start, he’s so aggressive and shouty when trying to “help” my DD that I struggle to see it as “caring”. When there’s no way to put a positive spin on something he’s done, his parents blame it on being hungry or tired or a tummy ache, (but if that’s the case then he’s been hungry and tired almost constantly for the last 5 days, despite eating and sleeping at normal times…).

I just feel like I’m in a bit of an alternate universe, as I keep seeing these patterns of unpleasant behaviour where Alex seems to be constantly, and purposefully, trying to hurt or annoy the other two children, but the other adults in the family seem completely blind to it.

So yeah, any perspectives welcome please. Is this really within the bounds of normal 4-year-old boy behaviour? Am I being too precious with my DD? Will he just naturally grow out of behaving like this? How would you respond if you were Alex’s parents? How would you respond if you were me? TIA

Read OP’s first post. The child HAS been told!

Well it is blatantly also his fault. He's been told these things, he isn't stopping.

His laissez-faire parents have lost control of their son. You should not stay with them. Move to a motel & visit them. On future trips see is he's changed, if not motel. His behaviour is dangerous and your child is at risk. Never leave her alone with him.

I am more concerned your husband hasn't stepped in and sorted this out with his family.

No its not normal at all, especially putting a scarf or belt around her neck, i would not be happy at all

Potential serial killer there!

Why are you still there ?

That is NOT normal behaviour. Take your child away from him before she gets seriously hurt. Don't allow him near her and tell the parents why

Not normal. I have two boys and this type of behaviour would not have been tolerated. It’s unsafe and you and your husband need to speak to the boy’s parents to let them know why it is completely unacceptable. Up to you as to whether you leave your holiday (shouldn’t they be the ones to leave or make alternative arrangements?) but this presents a strangulation or suffocation risk that you are on notice of.

His behaviour sounds horrible if he isn’t picking it up from older siblings I wonder what’s going on

What? Are you asking your 2 year old to say “stop” to such a bully??? Honestly, pick up your child and your luggage and go back home. This kid is so nasty because his parents let him go away with murder, trying to help other people? What planet are they on?

And no, not boys behaviour at all.

^This with bells on. Toddlers don’t innately know boundaries, they have to learn them. There are a lot of adults in this equation, including OP and her husband, who need to change their own behaviours before this demonised little boy can learn how to change his. I actually can’t believe what I’ve read from some PPs.

@KarenOLantern
I don't understand why anyone can defend a child trying to strangle another, smaller child and anyone defending it as acceptable behaviour. It's far from acceptable, the lifting and trying to help her drink, I might just about accept. As before, get your child away from them. Their feelings are not your problem, protecting your child is.

Not normal behaviour
Not 'caring' - from what you describe, it seems he's developing 'control' tendencies.

Your description of his parents and their parenting seems a perfect example of why some children grow into controlling, physically aggressive, violent adults

I'd be speaking frankly and honestly to the parents. Their glossing over this bad, negative behaviour is more unacceptable than the behaviour itself.

I'd also have no qualms about stopping this behaviour every time it's directed to my child. If nobody is properly intervening and explaining why his actions are causing hurt and distress, how's he supposed to know / learn? He's still too young to put himself in other people's shoes so probably has no idea how this is impacting those around him.

I feel very sorry for him. His parents are setting him up for failure, albeit unintentionally.

I'm not even going to start on the MIL comments other than to say how completely damaging that attitude is - does she live in a bubble!?!

They often threaten punishments, but I have yet to see one actually happen.

...and there's your problem.

I'd go home OP. It sounds stressful and unpleasant being there; and like either you'll explode, your kid will get injured or both.

He sounds really messed up....

It is the parents' fault for not stopping the behaviour. I have a brother whose eldest child was like that with his baby sister. My brother and his wife both said every time my nephew did something to his sister, "if she doesn't like it, she will move away, or tell him to stop.!" This was when my niece was 6 weeks old!! I have to say that my nephew got a slap on his nappy for jumping on his sister's stomach with both feet to make her "swing" in her baby bouncer. I just reacted. Lifted him up by the scruff of the neck and slapped his bum. He got such a fright, he simply sat down and looked at me when I let him go. But neither parent stopped him when they saw him behaving like this. They did think it odd he behaved when around his auntie!! Kids need boundaries and it is up to the parents to put them in place. So many bad parents out there!!

I think I would cut the visit short, his behaviour sounds vile and is putting your child at risk. Your first priority is your daughters safety.

He’s showing he’s unhappy having to share the attention with your daughter. Unless his parents get on top of it he’s going to be a nightmare. At the age of 4 he should know actions have consequences, even if it’s just a 5 minute timeout.
Is he your MILs daughters child?

Very worrying like he’s trying to exert control over her. I wouldn’t stay and tell them you’ve had enough of it, list what you’ve said here!!

I agree with the others. Go home and let the parents know why their child's behaviour is completely out of order your daughter is being terrorised bless her the fact they haven't stuck to their words regards punishing him, just shows how bothered they really are.

I have a boy who's 3 and half and he's no angel seriously he's a naughty sneaky and very loud. He gets told and sanctioned each time. He definitely knows how to be gentle with his younger sister though she's 1 and he is very accommodating to her even though she hits him at times, and wouldn't dare try to pick her up or cover her face with a blanket just the other weekend He wanted to feed her and he was so loving and gentle. On the other hand he'll play fight with his older sister (8) and will use his full force he jumps all over the place. Has my heart in my mouth at times. He's fully aware of what's acceptable and not when it comes to his sisters.
IMO that behaviour is far from OK and tbh needs addressing this child could very easily have seriously hurt your daughter if you wasn't there to protect her.

Imagine an adult doing this to another adult or any adult to a child - it's abuse. Of course the 4-year-old in not culpable in the same way as an adult but it must be traumatic.

I have a 1.5 year old and a 4 year old boy. Little bits of this are to be expected but should not be tolerated. One thing I've learned is that empty threats (be nice or there's no desert, or if you hit her with that toy again we aren't going to the park etc. Etc.) Are absolutely useless. My older boy gets 1 chance, if he does x a second time the toy he has in his hand is taken off him instantly, not to be returned until at least the next day. The punishment has to be instant. Throw a toy at little brother in the bath, toy gone instantly. Safety I'd not to be messed with. The parents need to cop on, and if I was you I would instantly step in when this happens while you sre there, if they have an issue with you removing his toy etc. Then they can take it up with you and ye will be having a big discussion about it all. And my 4 year old knows he is absolutely not allowed to feed his little brother etc. This is absolutely about safety. A large chunk of toddler choking deaths are caused by older children giving them unsuitable foods. The boundaries have to be set. This is basic safety. I would also go home if they are not willing to support your boundaries, they would absolutely not put up with their precious little angel being tormented constantly by another child twice their age and size. It's a hard No from me.

Yanbu, I have a little boy who is 2y7m, a niece who is 2y3m and a nephew who is 2y2m. My little boy gets hit, bitten, smacked and pushed by the two younger cousins, when I say hit my nephew grabbed my little boys toy wooden rolling pin and smacked him over the head with it multiple times with a lot of force to the point you could hear it hitting his head and it left a mark. There are never any repercussions for their actions not telling them it is wrong or removing them from the situation the parents just say ‘he/she is too young to understand’ which frustrates me a lot as my little boy has been taught from a young age when something is good or bad and when he does something bad he is told it is bad, why it’s bad and to say sorry if he is unwilling to say sorry he is not allowed to play with them until he apologises in one way or another, often he is not very verbal with apologies and will give a kiss or hug instead(we are working on this).

my brother and sister in law are quick to make me tell my son off or they tell him off themselves if he does something bad (even if it was an accident) but won’t tell their child off if they do the same thing.

when my son is hurt by my niece or nephew I keep a very close eye on them and if he gets hurt again he is removed from the situation and I will sit and play with him or he will play with his other auntie(6) instead, you need to be removing your daughter from that situation if they are unwilling to teach their child what is right and wrong for her own safety.