to think my nephew’s bad behaviour isn’t acceptable?

[KarenOLantern]

I have a DD (2) who was born in lockdown so I didn’t make any mum friends, none of my friends have kids, so I am clueless as to what to expect/how to react to other children’s behaviour and would really appreciate other perspectives here, plus ideas on how to respond.

We have two nephews on my DH’s side (both 4, not brothers) who live very far away, so we see them about 2-3 times a year. One of them (let’s call him George) is fine. The other (Alex) was a really kind and sweet toddler, but I am struggling to see anything positive about his behaviour over the last year, and I don’t know if I am being unreasonable by expecting too much from such a young kid, or if I’m right to think his behaviour isn’t great.

We are currently 5 days into a 10-day stay with Alex and his parents, and I am not exaggerating when I say I don’t think he has been pleasant to my DD for more than 5 minutes at a time. We were told he was really excited to see her and he talks about her all the time, which I am sure is true, but his idea of playing with her involves:

• roughly picking her up and carrying her around, no matter how much she cries, tells him to stop, or the adults tell him not to because he’s hurting her and it’s dangerous;

• pushing her down and sitting on top of her (again, ignoring her crying, and repeating it after adults have told him not to);

• whatever she’s doing, he has to annoy her somehow. If she’s playing with a toy, he'll snatch it off her/push her off it. If she’s drinking water he’ll snatch her cup and try to force-feed it to her (pressing the cup really hard into her face and hurting her). If she’s on a chair he’ll pull her off roughly, while shouting at her; if she climbs off the chair he shouts “No! You’ve got to sit on the chair!” and lifts her back onto it.

• He shouts and screams at her if she isn’t doing what he thinks she should be doing (which always seems to be the opposite of whatever she is currently doing).

• Several times I have had to physically stop him from putting a cushion/duvet on her face and sitting on it.

• Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands.

-Whenever he is physically prevented from any of this behaviour he screams very loudly, swings his limbs around and throws things.

When my DD is obviously distressed/in danger I step in physically, although I have also been trying to encourage her to shout "stop" , but she hasn't yet. While all this is going on, Alex's parents are usually there telling him to stop, but he pays them very little mind. They often threaten punishments, but I have yet to see one actually happen.

My MIL seems to think this is just “normal boy behaviour”… except that the other cousin George never behaves like this at all. He can be noisy and chaotic of course, but I’ve never seen him be aggressive or purposefully hurt or annoy another child like Alex seems to almost constantly. (It’s also worth noting, Alex behaves in a similar manner with George too, but as they are the same age/size George can stand up for himself much better.)

Alex’s parents seem to think most of this behaviour comes from a desire to help people, and they are always going on about how caring he is, (eg. when he picks my DD up it’s because he wants to help her walk, when he snatches her water cup and presses it to her face he’s trying to help her drink, etc., and it’s just that he’s too young to know when to stop.) But I am inclined to suspect they’re a bit misty-eyed and just trying to put a positive spin on everything he does. For a start, he’s so aggressive and shouty when trying to “help” my DD that I struggle to see it as “caring”. When there’s no way to put a positive spin on something he’s done, his parents blame it on being hungry or tired or a tummy ache, (but if that’s the case then he’s been hungry and tired almost constantly for the last 5 days, despite eating and sleeping at normal times…).

I just feel like I’m in a bit of an alternate universe, as I keep seeing these patterns of unpleasant behaviour where Alex seems to be constantly, and purposefully, trying to hurt or annoy the other two children, but the other adults in the family seem completely blind to it.

So yeah, any perspectives welcome please. Is this really within the bounds of normal 4-year-old boy behaviour? Am I being too precious with my DD? Will he just naturally grow out of behaving like this? How would you respond if you were Alex’s parents? How would you respond if you were me? TIA

Several times I have had to physically stop him from putting a cushion/duvet on her face and sitting on it.

Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands.

Go home. If any of these things happened even ONCE in isolation to my child, without a serious telling off and explanation of the seriousness of what he’s doing by his parents, then I would leave.

If he’s 4 he’s well old enough to understand. Yes, he may be impulsive, but his parents need to act with urgency. If they won’t, you should.

He sounds horrendous, and not in any way normal. You seem to be quite passive about this? If someone had tried to strangle my daughter, I don't think I would be reacting so calmly.

You may have been conditioned to be "kind" and not to rock the boat, but that should go out of the window when your child is being hurt. Clearly, it will not be an easy situation, but rather than let her end up seriously hurt, it is best to go home now. Go home, and tell them all exactly why. This is unlikely to go down well, which will have the benefit of ensuring that your dd is not faced with this violent bully again very soon.

This is not sending out the right healthy message to your DD, go home now. She's not safe. Really she's not, why are you putting up with this!

I actually can't believe you're still there after he tried to strangle her

What is your husband’s reaction to all this?

OR he might have SN

Yes, he absolutely might. But the point is that the adults in the family are very much in denial about that possibility, because they're all saying it's just 'boys will be boys' and aren't entertaining the notion that his behaviour is not standard.

You looked at your little boy's behaviour and knew that it wasn't OK, and you realised that he wasn't responding to parenting/discipline, so you sought help and were also responsible about the situations you put him in. You say yourself that you wouldn't have had people to stay for 10 days because your son would really struggle with that - that's good parenting!

Also, the possibility that he might have undiagnosed SN doesn't change the fact that the parents are doing nothing to attempt to protect the other children from him. They just say 'Don't do that, Alex' and let him carry on. They are watching him repeatedly hurt other children without physically intervening or putting in place any consequences for his actions.

The possible scenarios here are a) Alex is a neurotypical child who is allowed to get away with shockingly violent and bullying behaviour because his parents do nothing about it or b) Alex's shockingly violent and bullying behaviour is a result of SN, but his parents aren't looking into this possibility because they think it's all just jolly rough-and-tumble and are just going to keep saying 'Don't strangle your cousin, darling' instead of getting him the help he needs. Neither of those really give me much confidence in their approach.

Pack up and leave.
You need to protect your daughter.

As a young child, I used to worry about going to stay with a specific family as their older DC would bully me {Boys}...
They probably did so because they ''Could''.

However, at a Funeral decades later, we met up again, and they actually apologised for being 'Bullies' and said ''We were amazed you never told on us, you just accepted it''.

Your Daughter doesn't have to accept it.

Take her home.

I wouldn’t let my daughter anywhere near him. I have sons and they never behaved like that. What’s he going to be like at school I wonder? Protect your daughter and no need to play nice with the parents, tell them straight it unacceptable and you’re not going to tolerate it.

@KarenOLantern
''Alex'' sounds actively dangerous.
Throttling, trying to suffocate a smaller child {Or any child?} ??

What the heck has he been watching on screens to even know about such dangerous behaviours at 4 yrs old?

Please get out of there now, before something really bad happens.

yes! this!!

I’d go home

my son was a little bit like that at the same age - he has adhd and autism and struggled a lot with poor impulse control. He wouldn’t think he was upsetting anyone and would just impulsively do something without thinking, which yes included dangerous and stupid stuff.

So yes some kids are like this but you don’t have to stay there.

Go Home. For your daughters sake. There's no reason to stay, this is no holiday for her, it's not fun, she's being tormented and put in physical danger constantly.
Yes, you will lose the rest of the holiday and the costs, but it's not actually a holiday for her is it. its 10 days of torment.

Where has he learnt this behaviour from?

What are his parents doing about it?

What is your DH doing about it?

And why are you still there? Pack up and go home and tell his parents exactly why.

This sounds like a nightmare and I'm raging on your behalf 😤
Is really awkward when it's someone else's kid. They clearly aren't setting any boundaries/going through with discipline. Are they giving him any attention? Playing with him 1:1? He might be acting up because he is being ignored.

I dont think I could stand by and let this happen to my little boy, a similar age. I'm not sure what the answer is but I'd get your husband involved and when there is in incident kick off at his brother/sister. Could try and be firm/set boundaries with the kid yourself I.e don't go near my child and physically take her away if he is near him. Difficult if the parents don't support it.

Or best to probably leave! Next time he does something awful like the belt incident I'd probably start crying and just say you can't take it anymore and think it's best you leave, none of you are having a good time because your daughter is being constantly bullied. That might get the message through. Not sure how you're holding it together!!
Good luck!!!

Christ your poor dd
why are u putting up with this ,are you waiting till your backs turned and he does her some serious damage
your concern is your dd ,and right now ,your not protecting her ..why the fuck does she have to shout stop ,there’s god knows how many adults there who are all doing a poor job of protecting her .
yes the boy has issues ,but that’s his parents call to sort out .
if I were you I’d of left ages ago ..
no one is protecting that poor girl

Some of it sounds normal a lot doesn't as it is extreme and dangerous.

Hovever you can be by her side constantly and phycially intervene prevent this behavior from happening.

If you need to leave side for her toilet or whatever actually say to another adult possible DH or MIL - I am leaving DD in your care for x minutes keep watch - then if anything happend vent frustrations at them as they were adult in charge.

It is exhausting - but I had to do that for more than one child at relatives house - less being attacked though some visitingkids did try - more family unwilling to make baisc safety changes like move pills out of way - and I'd do it and then they'd move them back.

Ideally leave - if you can't have an adult by her side constanly so this kind of thing can't happen.

Also find if "everyone" is watching the kids - in practsie no-one is or just mother's or even one Mum is.

Taking toys and trying to lift smaller children, I have seen before. Everything else seems OTT.

Has anyone actually told him off? If not his parents, have you?

Has anyone said 'kind hands' to him? If he can't do that, tell him to stop - if his parents won't do it, you need to as it's dangerous.

I remember when I was young and being a prat my aunties and uncles used to tell me off - even the ones that I saw twice a year as they lived hundreds of miles away. My aunties were both teachers and were pretty strict (and lovely)

I'm from a large family with lots of DCs and GDCs. YY I have seen DCs of his age (both boys and girls) who were constantly trying to pick up younger DCs and give them drinks, feed them, etc. They were a bit rough but NT and often overwhelmed in 'special' situations ie visitors; parties.

I've also seen DCs who are very prescriptive in their play and would be constantly trying to get the other DCs to sit down, stand up, do this, do that.

So, some of his behaviour is within NT behaviours but if he is hurting anyone, he should be removed from the situation and told sternly that it's not appropriate.

As for the belts round her neck, I would be intervening, taking the belt away, physically removing him from the situation and returning him to a parent. In usual circumstances, I'd say remove your own DC but this boy is family so I'd be making a point of removing him, telling his parents it's not ok and saying I don't know whether you use time out or naughty steps but he obviously needs removed from the situation. Anything around necks is very dangerous.

And none of this behaviour should be dismissed as 'boys will be boys' - that's sexist bullshit.

I would protect my child and leave. It's not normal and whatever the reason your daughter is being bullied. Go home and give her some peace and show her you have her back.

The parents are being unreasonable in not stepping in.
It sounds like Alex hasn't learned social skills yet, he needs an adult to help guide the play as you would for a toddler. Sadly lots of children around this age have missed out on building social skills and learning what is acceptable.

@ImustLearn2Cook
this is a very good response. I think the last paragraph is spot on.

· Today 10:48
I have worked in nursery and know some children his age that lack impulse control, not able to moderate their voice volume, who try to help but don’t quite understand how to be gentle.

Children have their own personality, temperament, and develop at their own pace. All of us have our unique combination of strengths and weaknesses.

Yes, you need to protect your daughter. She is only two.

Your nephew needs more than being told to stop or being threatened with punishment.

He needs guidance and not just on occasion but consistently and repetitively. Children learn by repetition. Teach him.

His parents and other adults need to remind him to be gentle and then demonstrate how to be gentle. Teach him.

Not normal or acceptable at all. And I say this as someone with a 3 year old who's perfectly capable of being an absolute horror.

The constant picking up of your daughter, being too rough when "helping" with things like her drinking and telling her what to do, is very similar to how my DD would have been at age 4.

She has since been diagnosed with ADHD and ASD and at 4 it was clear she behaved differently from other children despite constant correction and supervision.

Trying to put a cushion on her face and sit on it and the attempted strangulation is horrific! Something is very very wrong here. My daughter was (and as a teenager, is still unintentionally rough) but she's never deliberately tried to hurt someone. What you're describing is intentional harm - significant harm.

It's time to go home. How can you possibly relax.

10 days is a long stay even without issues. Be honest with them, say you're finding it too much and the constant need for supervision too stressful and exhausting. It's been lovely to see them but you'll head home a bit early so everyone can relax.

They might not be doing a particularly good parenting job but when you have an extremely challenging child it can be very very difficult and at times be totally overwhelming. Rightly or wrongly, they may not intervene as much as they should because they may know that whatever they do makes no difference at all and they know you are stepping in.

They don't need direct criticism from you but an explanation, without accusations, and for you to go home or to book accommodation elsewhere, to finish your break is definitely the right option for you.

This isn’t normal. At all. Snatching toys from her, not wanting to share his things? That’s normal. Getting a bit overexcited and hugging her too hard/running into her? That’s normal; kids forget their own strength sometimes with little ones. But what you describe is way, way outside this. And the fact that the parents make excuses for it would worry me too. Go home. Go today. Be calm and polite about it - “I’ve decided it’s for the best that….. Thank you for having us.” But do not engage in further discussion. So what if they think you’re precious? You think their son is a danger to your DD - and I know which matters more. It might be the short sharp shock they need to see the problem for themselves.

DS1 has the same diagnoses as your daughter, he would sometimes cover peoples faces with q blanket and not let them out because he was “playing hide and seek”. He genuinely had no idea it was a smothering risk and would hold it like a dog with a bone because he was just playing in his eyes and couldn’t understand.

Obviously we made sure he wasn’t left unattended with other kids/pets, and removed any blankets from him (he’d still do it with coats and stuff though). So kids CAN do harmful stuff without any intent.