to think my nephew’s bad behaviour isn’t acceptable?

[KarenOLantern]

I have a DD (2) who was born in lockdown so I didn’t make any mum friends, none of my friends have kids, so I am clueless as to what to expect/how to react to other children’s behaviour and would really appreciate other perspectives here, plus ideas on how to respond.

We have two nephews on my DH’s side (both 4, not brothers) who live very far away, so we see them about 2-3 times a year. One of them (let’s call him George) is fine. The other (Alex) was a really kind and sweet toddler, but I am struggling to see anything positive about his behaviour over the last year, and I don’t know if I am being unreasonable by expecting too much from such a young kid, or if I’m right to think his behaviour isn’t great.

We are currently 5 days into a 10-day stay with Alex and his parents, and I am not exaggerating when I say I don’t think he has been pleasant to my DD for more than 5 minutes at a time. We were told he was really excited to see her and he talks about her all the time, which I am sure is true, but his idea of playing with her involves:

• roughly picking her up and carrying her around, no matter how much she cries, tells him to stop, or the adults tell him not to because he’s hurting her and it’s dangerous;

• pushing her down and sitting on top of her (again, ignoring her crying, and repeating it after adults have told him not to);

• whatever she’s doing, he has to annoy her somehow. If she’s playing with a toy, he'll snatch it off her/push her off it. If she’s drinking water he’ll snatch her cup and try to force-feed it to her (pressing the cup really hard into her face and hurting her). If she’s on a chair he’ll pull her off roughly, while shouting at her; if she climbs off the chair he shouts “No! You’ve got to sit on the chair!” and lifts her back onto it.

• He shouts and screams at her if she isn’t doing what he thinks she should be doing (which always seems to be the opposite of whatever she is currently doing).

• Several times I have had to physically stop him from putting a cushion/duvet on her face and sitting on it.

• Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands.

-Whenever he is physically prevented from any of this behaviour he screams very loudly, swings his limbs around and throws things.

When my DD is obviously distressed/in danger I step in physically, although I have also been trying to encourage her to shout "stop" , but she hasn't yet. While all this is going on, Alex's parents are usually there telling him to stop, but he pays them very little mind. They often threaten punishments, but I have yet to see one actually happen.

My MIL seems to think this is just “normal boy behaviour”… except that the other cousin George never behaves like this at all. He can be noisy and chaotic of course, but I’ve never seen him be aggressive or purposefully hurt or annoy another child like Alex seems to almost constantly. (It’s also worth noting, Alex behaves in a similar manner with George too, but as they are the same age/size George can stand up for himself much better.)

Alex’s parents seem to think most of this behaviour comes from a desire to help people, and they are always going on about how caring he is, (eg. when he picks my DD up it’s because he wants to help her walk, when he snatches her water cup and presses it to her face he’s trying to help her drink, etc., and it’s just that he’s too young to know when to stop.) But I am inclined to suspect they’re a bit misty-eyed and just trying to put a positive spin on everything he does. For a start, he’s so aggressive and shouty when trying to “help” my DD that I struggle to see it as “caring”. When there’s no way to put a positive spin on something he’s done, his parents blame it on being hungry or tired or a tummy ache, (but if that’s the case then he’s been hungry and tired almost constantly for the last 5 days, despite eating and sleeping at normal times…).

I just feel like I’m in a bit of an alternate universe, as I keep seeing these patterns of unpleasant behaviour where Alex seems to be constantly, and purposefully, trying to hurt or annoy the other two children, but the other adults in the family seem completely blind to it.

So yeah, any perspectives welcome please. Is this really within the bounds of normal 4-year-old boy behaviour? Am I being too precious with my DD? Will he just naturally grow out of behaving like this? How would you respond if you were Alex’s parents? How would you respond if you were me? TIA

He is 4yo. His behaviour is completely normal. The reactions all round are not. There are teachable moments to shape behaviour that are not being taken up. This is in all the adults, not the 4yo.

No sounds ott

I had boisterous kids but they would never have behaved like this. And I would never have let them be in a situation where they were treated this badly by another child.

Step up as a parent and stop this behaviour - either by taking your daughter out of range of this child or removing yourselves completely and going home.

No good can possibly come to your daughter by allowing things to continue as they are.

Go home, & tell the parents why.

Protect your daughter and leave now. He sounds absolutely out of control. Why on earth are you adults bleating at him to stop when he's plainly not listening? He tried to garotte your daughter "holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands". Just read that - he tried to kill her. How can you sleep?

Frankly at that point, I wouldn't have been too worried about breaking a finger or two if I had to to break his grip though I can't even begin to imagine what my father or mother would have done, four or not. It would have probably have at least involved some mid air dangling. I was my parent's late in life little princess and if my father found an older cousin making a very determined attempt to garrotte me that cousin would have regretted it almost instantly. Alex is a little psychopath and your MIL is frankly batshit.

These are not traditional boyish traits. I have sons and they would never have done that to a younger child (or a contemporary for that matter). Your daughter must have been terrified. My cousins were delightful boys who put up with a much younger cousin mucking up their football games with very good grace. My husband who is one of three boys was once discussing a scuffle at our son's school and he told me that any boy of his generation who hit a girl would have been shamed and probably caned.

I mean, I have a 4 year old who is quite mischievous, not gentle and likes to help. There have been instances where she has put her hands around my throat (after seeing Homer do this to Bart on the Simpsons) and put things around our dog's neck and tried to drag him around the living room.

The difference is, I intervened, made clear that this isn't acceptable behaviour, explained why and implemented consequences. Because whether this is 'normal' behaviour or not, whatever the underlying cause, it's not acceptable, not safe and needs addressing!

We are currently 5 days into a 10-day stay
YABU for not having packed and left for home already.
YANBU if you're typing this from a service station half-way to home already.

Attempting to smother and strangle another child are not normal behaviours.

You wouldn't accept "He's friendly, really" from a dog owner, so why accept it from a child's parents when that child is exhibiting life-threatening behaviours towards your child?

YANBU to protect your child. Your nephew sounds like he doesn't understand yet boundaries of normal social behaviour. This is actually something which is beginning to be talked about in the press - yet another impact of covid lockdowns upon young children & the lack of social interactions with other young children & wider families. Many more little ones are now showing signs of developmental delays in speech development & social skills, it's really sad & is going to take them a while to catch up with some professionals now concerned that it may have l9ng term impacts upon this generation. Can't find the link but there was an interesting article in last day or soon this very topic.
All the more important that parents & other adults are involved in teaching this young boy how to behave - he's a child he learns by following adults lead, copying older children etc. Not his fault he's not been guided properly.
But yes you absolutely need to keep your DD safe

I am wondering what you DH is saying or doing about all of this? Does he act like te othercsdults, or is he sharing your concern?

This boy must never, ever be alone with your daughter, even for a second. To be honest, I would go home.

I would also challenge any gaslighting or minimising from other adults so that your daughter sees it is not ok for her to be abused in this way. His intention is irrelevant, she should not ever be harmed. It is too much to give her responsibility if protecting herself, she is reliant on adults around her and she is being let down at the minute.

Alex's parents are usually there telling him to stop, but he pays them very little mind. They often threaten punishments, but I have yet to see one actually happen.

Some kids you have to physically hoick them away, every time. You need to do that if his parents wont.

Some kids really don't know how to play with another child. He's treating her like a toy and that's not on. It is a red flag that he may have social development issues especially since he does the same with his other cousin (though I wouldn't say that)

Keep the kids separate or go home. It's not safe or fun for DD to play with him even with adults close by (and I would say that)

It sounds melodramatic but I think it will get your point across. The suffocating and strangulation is what I’m really concerned about. Explain that you are leaving specifically because of those dangerous incidents, don’t bother getting into the other behaviour as it will just muddy the water and you don’t want them to get defensive and think of it as a character assassination.

I think lockdown deeply affected some children. Your nephew has clearly had trouble learning to socialise because of this.

I think you should be quite blunt and serious with them about this as it is not out of the realms of possibility for children to even kill. But try and go about it in a supportive way as in you think it would be better for your nephew to improve his empathy and social skills.

Does he start school in September? What does DDs father say about the whole situation?

It's not normal. My younger sister was a bit like this - lots of hitting, and she'd scratch you and scratch you until you bled if you didn't do what she said, but obviously no tying things around necks. My parents turned a blind eye and said it couldn't hurt as I was bigger than her or that I needed to show her how to behave as I was older. Just totally crap parenting. Can't imagine how I turned out such a people pleaser.

Alex's parents are doing him no favours - intervention needs to happen before he gets bigger and stronger than they are. But that's not your lookout. I'd leave. Your DD is young enough to be learning lessons that you really don't want her learning - it can take years to undo them.

If later on in life her partner was doing this to her I am sure you would be rightly telling her to leave immediately. Don't let her endure anymore, get her away from him and tell the family why

If any child had tried to strangle my DD I cannot tell you the level of fury that would be unleashed. I would have gone absolutely batshit. I know some 4yr olds (mainly boys) and none of them behave like this. They can be little sods and sometimes don’t know their own strength, can be thoughtless etc all totally normal in the age group but this behaviour seems extreme.

Take your DD home, she’s being assaulted by another child, whether he means it or not is irrelevant, he’s hurting her.

Alex clearly hadn’t been socialised and I’m presuming he is an only child?

• Jo Frost toddler care, naughty step 1 min per year of age.
• lots of activities outside of nursery school to increase his socialisation.

Try and kindly say to the parents about these things. I would even ask if you can bring in the naughty step immediately as he is putting your daughter in danger with his behaviour. Watch your daughter like a hawk for the next few days.

No its not normal my newphew never done anything like tying things round others necks and sufficating them

whereis your dh in all this-how is suffocating someone trying to help them -does he do this in school

you need to leave

Your responsibility is to protect your child so I agree with PP's that you need to leave.

My DS would have done all of this at age 4 - but he'd already been diagnosed with autism by then, so we knew that he would never cope with someone in the house for 10 days, that he couldn't understand what hurt others, couldn't regulate himself when overwhelmed and had zero impulse control. It was nothing to do with our parenting - no matter how consistent or firm or repetitive we were, his neurotype means that he would/could not comply.

There are some really judgy responses on here. Yes, DN might have no idea how to behave because his parents are indulgent/useless. OR he might have SN and they might be parenting him properly till they're blue in the face with no discernible improvement. If it's the latter, I hope you'll be supportive, because it's a totally shit and relentless slog where everyone blames the parents (or more specifically, the mother).

I have a 4 year old and a 2 year old. I also am a childminder and so my 4 year old comes into contact with lots of other 2 year olds. She can be hard work and testing at times but there is absolutely no way she’d be behaving like this. She often tries to ‘help’ her little sister and gets it wrong sometimes… but not aggressively or forcefully and she is well old enough and socially aware enough to see and acknowledge when her sister isn’t enjoying something.

There is no way I’d stay and allow this behaviour to continue. It isn’t fair on your daughter.

Your little girl is now terrified.
She doesn't know when her torment is going to end.

End it for her, now, and remove her.

At 4 he thinks he's helping

I'm sorry, but this is really naive.

He absolutely does not 'think he's helping' by putting a cushion over her face and sitting on it, trying to throttle her with his full body weight to the extent that his chosen weapon had to be prised out of his hands, or refusing to stop shoving her around even when she is crying.

A four-year-old is close to school age. A normal four-year-old is aware that if he makes someone cry, it means he is hurting or upsetting them. He is being repeatedly told that it's not nice. He knows she doesn't like it. He knows he wouldn't like it if someone did that to him.

Notice, also, that the OP says he is exactly like this with George as well. George is the same age Alex, so Alex's behaviour towards George cannot be put down to 'helping with the baby'.

You can't expect a 2 year old to stop him when you can't.

I hope you are busy packing your bags OP. I would not stay in a house with a child who was trying to strangle a two year old.

Oh my god. Nah that's it. He does not go near her again.

He is victimising a vulnerable child. Your child.

three things stand out here.

1. it doensn't matter in the short term what's normal, the key point is the impact on your daughter! it doesn't matter whether it's because of some unidentified special need or just being hungry and grouchy, it's irrelevant in the moment.

2. your daughter can't stand up for herself at 2! you're trying to get a 4 year old and 2 year old to have normal boundaries and interactions (he did something she doesn't want, she tells him she doesn't want that, he backs off and doesn't do it again). that's just not usual at that age. your daughter should be encouraged to shout if she's not happy sure, but she really shouldn't be put in that situation over and over... it's not fair on her.

3. some of these incidents are really worrying, it's fucking bizarre some of the adults aren't recognising what could go wrong with e.g. stuff being put around her neck. the appropriate reaction to that is to get up, grab him off her, get the stuff from her neck, and tell her she's been fine but the little boy has been very naughty and dangerous - get him away from her to his parents so you can read him the riot act. if they don't do it, you will need to choose to do it or simply leave.

i think the issue here is mainly that they're normalising his behaviour, and making you doubt your own risk assessment... THEY are not acting proportionally or normally here.

It's not normal at all. I have worked with a great number of 4 year olds and most of them were loud and could be thoughtless (because of their age) but they weren't bullies and that's what your nephew is.
I'd go home and tell his parents why. They might be pissed off but your DD is 2 and needs you to keep her safe. She's been subjected to 5 days of being hurt and you're considering subjecting her to 5 more. No, just go home.
If you don't then step in every time he bullies her and tell him off. Not your child I know but tell him off because he needs to learn that even if his parents are happy for him to be violent you won't accept him hurting your child.

Actually, I did have non neurotypical children and I still think this boy's behaviour is appalling. Not having family members with small children to stay would be a first step I'd take. Secondly, I wouldn't be dressing this behaviour up as coming from a desire to help but would be trying to get to the bottom of it and/or punishing them severely. If they are non-neurotypical they can still be punished till they learn that bad things happen when they behave like that. (Yes, I realise that there may be some children who can't learn that and I realise this isn't what you signed up for and your life must be very difficult but you still have a duty to keep them away from small children they are hurting.)