to think my nephew’s bad behaviour isn’t acceptable?

[KarenOLantern]

I have a DD (2) who was born in lockdown so I didn’t make any mum friends, none of my friends have kids, so I am clueless as to what to expect/how to react to other children’s behaviour and would really appreciate other perspectives here, plus ideas on how to respond.

We have two nephews on my DH’s side (both 4, not brothers) who live very far away, so we see them about 2-3 times a year. One of them (let’s call him George) is fine. The other (Alex) was a really kind and sweet toddler, but I am struggling to see anything positive about his behaviour over the last year, and I don’t know if I am being unreasonable by expecting too much from such a young kid, or if I’m right to think his behaviour isn’t great.

We are currently 5 days into a 10-day stay with Alex and his parents, and I am not exaggerating when I say I don’t think he has been pleasant to my DD for more than 5 minutes at a time. We were told he was really excited to see her and he talks about her all the time, which I am sure is true, but his idea of playing with her involves:

• roughly picking her up and carrying her around, no matter how much she cries, tells him to stop, or the adults tell him not to because he’s hurting her and it’s dangerous;

• pushing her down and sitting on top of her (again, ignoring her crying, and repeating it after adults have told him not to);

• whatever she’s doing, he has to annoy her somehow. If she’s playing with a toy, he'll snatch it off her/push her off it. If she’s drinking water he’ll snatch her cup and try to force-feed it to her (pressing the cup really hard into her face and hurting her). If she’s on a chair he’ll pull her off roughly, while shouting at her; if she climbs off the chair he shouts “No! You’ve got to sit on the chair!” and lifts her back onto it.

• He shouts and screams at her if she isn’t doing what he thinks she should be doing (which always seems to be the opposite of whatever she is currently doing).

• Several times I have had to physically stop him from putting a cushion/duvet on her face and sitting on it.

• Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands.

-Whenever he is physically prevented from any of this behaviour he screams very loudly, swings his limbs around and throws things.

When my DD is obviously distressed/in danger I step in physically, although I have also been trying to encourage her to shout "stop" , but she hasn't yet. While all this is going on, Alex's parents are usually there telling him to stop, but he pays them very little mind. They often threaten punishments, but I have yet to see one actually happen.

My MIL seems to think this is just “normal boy behaviour”… except that the other cousin George never behaves like this at all. He can be noisy and chaotic of course, but I’ve never seen him be aggressive or purposefully hurt or annoy another child like Alex seems to almost constantly. (It’s also worth noting, Alex behaves in a similar manner with George too, but as they are the same age/size George can stand up for himself much better.)

Alex’s parents seem to think most of this behaviour comes from a desire to help people, and they are always going on about how caring he is, (eg. when he picks my DD up it’s because he wants to help her walk, when he snatches her water cup and presses it to her face he’s trying to help her drink, etc., and it’s just that he’s too young to know when to stop.) But I am inclined to suspect they’re a bit misty-eyed and just trying to put a positive spin on everything he does. For a start, he’s so aggressive and shouty when trying to “help” my DD that I struggle to see it as “caring”. When there’s no way to put a positive spin on something he’s done, his parents blame it on being hungry or tired or a tummy ache, (but if that’s the case then he’s been hungry and tired almost constantly for the last 5 days, despite eating and sleeping at normal times…).

I just feel like I’m in a bit of an alternate universe, as I keep seeing these patterns of unpleasant behaviour where Alex seems to be constantly, and purposefully, trying to hurt or annoy the other two children, but the other adults in the family seem completely blind to it.

So yeah, any perspectives welcome please. Is this really within the bounds of normal 4-year-old boy behaviour? Am I being too precious with my DD? Will he just naturally grow out of behaving like this? How would you respond if you were Alex’s parents? How would you respond if you were me? TIA

"Normal" doesn't come into it. Don't even discuss with MIL /his parents if he is normal or what his intentions are. Those are irrelevent.

What matters is, instead of justifying/explaining/ excusing behaviours than could seriously injure any smaller child, every adult should instantly step in and physically stop him doing it, while firmly telling him NO.

If they won't agree to that I'd cut short your visit and leave. It's not good for DC to be subjected to constant aggression and fright.

BTW I'm not criticising Alex, he's only little. I am very much blaming his parents and apparently grandparents for failing to teach him proper behaviour, and in the grandparents' case apparently also being sexist and thinking that boys are just like this. No wonder 80% of violent crime is committed by men.

10 day stay with family sounds like hell on earth for both parties regardless. On top of that, George is torturing your daughter, she must be traumatised

Sorry, Alex 😌

YANBU in general.
I have to say though, I’m a bit uncomfortable with the language used by some on this thread directed at the child…

I agree. Alex sounds out of control. It is up to his parents to discipline him, and you shouldn’t have to be playing bodyguard for your child against her cousin. I would talk to the parents and say if he keeps this up you will take your child home immediately.

BogRollBOGOF

Until you got to the cushion/ belt/ duvet I was going to say it's "normal" for a child with low social experience and poor boundaries (he's also missed out on two years of regular social foundation). Children can't learn if their parents don't guide them, and indulge their behaviours. It's not normal in terms of expected behaviour that is grown out of naturally (such as a dropping food/ items phase)

Some of this behaviour is dangerous and inexcusable, way beyond over-zealously treating DD like a doll.

This^^^

Some of the behaviour is the more extreme end of normal for some children regardless of MN veiws, some of it is way over and clearly endangering your DD.

10 days is a very long visit from a four year olds POV, he is likely to be seeing it as never ending. All behaviour is communication. His behaviour is about seeking to dominate and control your DD and it is to a dangerous level.

Completely unacceptable. You need to be stepping in far more. Not just when she's in serious danger. He's far bigger than her, she barely knows him. You're trying to make her stick up for herself. Show her how to stand up for herself by standing up for her. Physically get him off her every single time. "You're hurting her." "She doesn't like that." If you don't feel comfortable standing up for her how do you think she feels?

we had friends and their 3 kids staying just before covid. the eldest (about 9 then) did nothing but bully the younger 2. The parents (old friends, and sensible in most other respects) were utterly oblivious. Though they did say he had "a bit of a temper" and had, for example, responded to losing a football match by punching one of the other players in the stomach when they were supposed to be shaking hands at the end.

The behaviour you describe is not at all normal or acceptable. When I've seen it, it's usually as much the parents' fault as the child's. It grows from willful blindness and a shirking of a parental responsibility to expect appropriate behaviour and impose consequences.

You don't have to put up with it, and you have a responsibility not to, for the sake of your daughter. Leave.

This is not normal and you need to protect your child.
Leave immediately and make it clear why.

why on EARTH do you even has to ask if that is normal BOY behaviour
It not is not normal ANY GENDER behaviour

Jezus. Its time for you to stand up for DD and leave. Why havent you yet. I get it is your first kid op. But come on. Time to start parenting

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Why the hell are you allowing your daughter to be treated like this OP?

I would tell him off myself or physically stop him doing whatever he is doing at the time. It's not acceptable.

No this is not normal. I've watched most of our friends bring up boys & DD has grown up alongside them & the only one who exhibited some of this sort of behaviour went onto to be diagnosed with autism. He never put anything around necks though. That's very concerning & yiu need to protect your DD & leave. Hopefully by telling your family why you leave, might make them realise that they also let Alex down by not addressing his behaviour & seeking diagnosis & support. They might well be right that he only wants to help, but he clearly doesn't know how or respect boundaries. His adults need to step the fuck up

This. Jesus christ that is not normal and very dangerous behaviour

I used to do childcare for a lovely rather posh family whose eldest was like this. They were quite wet with him though. He was a nutter ended up being a drug dealer - the rest of the family emigrated and left him behind.

Don't let this keep happening. She is 2. It must be terrifying for her being constantly grabbed and hurt and her parents not removing her

I have a 4 year old DS and a 15 month old DD. He has NEVER done anything like what you listed to his sister. In fact she regularly climbs on him, hits him, tugs on his hair (obviously I intervene) and he still would never react with aggression. So no, YANBU.

He tried actually tried to drown his younger sibling when I took them swimming.

I have a 4 year old and a nearly 2 year old. The 4 year old can be a bit rough sometimes (usually if she tries carrying her little sister) and we have to step in and stop that. Reading your post, I thought the carrying seemed normal and probably needs watching and stopping when it happens. The other stuff, absolutely not normal. My blood ran cold reading the belt round her neck. Totally unacceptable and I would be mortified if my child did that and there would be a consequence for her if she did.
I think I would have to leave in your position, I’d find another 5 days too anxiety inducing, not to mention your little one must be terrified of her cousin.

His behaviour is not normal in my view.

However you need to protect your child. If you cannot keep her in a safe separate room at all times then leave. Your child is being repeatedly hurt by this kid and everyone thinks it's not a problem? What if the next time he gets something around her neck noone sees or acts quick enough? What if he gets that pillow over her in just the right way and noone stops him? The consequences for your dd don't bear thinking about.

She is already being seriously harmed by this bully - whether he has SN or not that wont change the impacts on her - both physically and mentally. You are allowing him to teach her that bigger stronger kids (boys/men?) are allowed to hurt/dominate her amd she sould accept that because the adults around her that she has been taught to trust (grandma, aunt, dad?) do nothing to stop it. (And yes at 2yrs old she does understand!)

GET HER OUT OF THERE NOW BEFORE HE KILLS HER!!

Go home!!! I would have left after the first day and would have wanted to leave after the first hour! This is the reality of how some people bring up their children. If they do grow out of it later, it’s more good luck than management. You have to protect your child. It doesn’t matter if the others get pissy about it. They have a vested interest and a bias in NOT seeing how bad the behaviour is because it would mean their kid was a nightmare and they are useless, ineffectual parents! They aren’t going to agree with you about how awful his behaviour is because they would have come down on it before now if they were going to. 4 is quite old in these terms, he’s not 18 months and tiny with it. 4 years olds can carry some heft!

Get the hell out if there, you need to protect your child, and I would explain explicitly to the parents why.

If what you are saying is true about things round your childs neck and over her face, he could kill her.

Whether or not there is something seriously wrong with Alex is a concern , but not as immediate as removing your child from harms way . She must be absolutely terrified.

You have done well to last this long, end it now.

Ok I'm going to put my neck in the line here.

4 year olds often want to 'help' & 'be in charge'. They do things/say things they've seen parents do - or rather their interpretation of them.

at 4 they don't have much, if any, concept of hurting others - thst comes much later.

At 4 he thinks he's helping carrying her, having a drink...

he looks huge to your 2 yo DD, but when your DD is 4 you'll still think she's little & 'trying to help'

obviously Little Sir Help A Lot, needs to be taught HOW to help and not to put anything around someones neck etc.

have they been left to 'play's lot without any adult help/direction? Are they being taken out to the park etc? Any downtime with kids TV?

you don't need to rush off home, but this does need to be managed better. You can't make his parents behave differently, but I'd have NO problem teaching him better ways myself, if they don't like it, they can keep him out of my & DD's way 💁🏻‍♀️

has your DH intervened at all??

Good freaking lord. No that is not 'normal boy behaviour'. 😮 How are the parents so blind? I would have lost my shit at them by now. Seriously, they need a wake-up call.

Keep a close eye on your little one so you can intervene ASAP (or leave and let your hosts know why!)