to think my nephew’s bad behaviour isn’t acceptable?

[KarenOLantern]

I have a DD (2) who was born in lockdown so I didn’t make any mum friends, none of my friends have kids, so I am clueless as to what to expect/how to react to other children’s behaviour and would really appreciate other perspectives here, plus ideas on how to respond.

We have two nephews on my DH’s side (both 4, not brothers) who live very far away, so we see them about 2-3 times a year. One of them (let’s call him George) is fine. The other (Alex) was a really kind and sweet toddler, but I am struggling to see anything positive about his behaviour over the last year, and I don’t know if I am being unreasonable by expecting too much from such a young kid, or if I’m right to think his behaviour isn’t great.

We are currently 5 days into a 10-day stay with Alex and his parents, and I am not exaggerating when I say I don’t think he has been pleasant to my DD for more than 5 minutes at a time. We were told he was really excited to see her and he talks about her all the time, which I am sure is true, but his idea of playing with her involves:

• roughly picking her up and carrying her around, no matter how much she cries, tells him to stop, or the adults tell him not to because he’s hurting her and it’s dangerous;

• pushing her down and sitting on top of her (again, ignoring her crying, and repeating it after adults have told him not to);

• whatever she’s doing, he has to annoy her somehow. If she’s playing with a toy, he'll snatch it off her/push her off it. If she’s drinking water he’ll snatch her cup and try to force-feed it to her (pressing the cup really hard into her face and hurting her). If she’s on a chair he’ll pull her off roughly, while shouting at her; if she climbs off the chair he shouts “No! You’ve got to sit on the chair!” and lifts her back onto it.

• He shouts and screams at her if she isn’t doing what he thinks she should be doing (which always seems to be the opposite of whatever she is currently doing).

• Several times I have had to physically stop him from putting a cushion/duvet on her face and sitting on it.

• Twice he has put a scarf/belt around her neck and tried to pull it very hard. Both times I was right there so grabbed it and shouted at him to stop, but he was very insistent and holding on very tightly/pulling with his whole body weight and I had to really prise it out of his hands.

-Whenever he is physically prevented from any of this behaviour he screams very loudly, swings his limbs around and throws things.

When my DD is obviously distressed/in danger I step in physically, although I have also been trying to encourage her to shout "stop" , but she hasn't yet. While all this is going on, Alex's parents are usually there telling him to stop, but he pays them very little mind. They often threaten punishments, but I have yet to see one actually happen.

My MIL seems to think this is just “normal boy behaviour”… except that the other cousin George never behaves like this at all. He can be noisy and chaotic of course, but I’ve never seen him be aggressive or purposefully hurt or annoy another child like Alex seems to almost constantly. (It’s also worth noting, Alex behaves in a similar manner with George too, but as they are the same age/size George can stand up for himself much better.)

Alex’s parents seem to think most of this behaviour comes from a desire to help people, and they are always going on about how caring he is, (eg. when he picks my DD up it’s because he wants to help her walk, when he snatches her water cup and presses it to her face he’s trying to help her drink, etc., and it’s just that he’s too young to know when to stop.) But I am inclined to suspect they’re a bit misty-eyed and just trying to put a positive spin on everything he does. For a start, he’s so aggressive and shouty when trying to “help” my DD that I struggle to see it as “caring”. When there’s no way to put a positive spin on something he’s done, his parents blame it on being hungry or tired or a tummy ache, (but if that’s the case then he’s been hungry and tired almost constantly for the last 5 days, despite eating and sleeping at normal times…).

I just feel like I’m in a bit of an alternate universe, as I keep seeing these patterns of unpleasant behaviour where Alex seems to be constantly, and purposefully, trying to hurt or annoy the other two children, but the other adults in the family seem completely blind to it.

So yeah, any perspectives welcome please. Is this really within the bounds of normal 4-year-old boy behaviour? Am I being too precious with my DD? Will he just naturally grow out of behaving like this? How would you respond if you were Alex’s parents? How would you respond if you were me? TIA

It's possible that he's been mistreated in some ways - the shouting and being dragged around sound very similar to how some adults treat small children - and the apparent inability of his parents to do anything about it is because the usual way he'd be treated can't be done with witnesses. Add in a bit of 4 year old lack of understanding and some inappropriate TV viewing, plus being in a different situation and it wouldn't be entirely surprising if this were to be the case of an abused child acting out.

I'd leave. And quite possibly making a report of concerns.

I’d pack up and go. If parents ask why be honest and tell them!

My view is this. A lot of what you describe is within normal range of behaviour, the trying to control etc, some dangerous ( obviously needs to be stopped) but the kind of thing that some 4 year olds might do, putting a cushion on another and sitting on it, and the neck situation extremely dangerous and should never have happened twice.
Either you realise that you much helicopter around your daughter constantly, or you leave, simple. I wouldn't expect any change in behaviour over the next 5 days, so there'll be more of the same. Unfortunately you won't be able to make the parents follow their child around monitoring behaviour. You can't let them interact independently.

No, not normal... In fact far from normal.

My family was full of small males... All very noisy boisterous and 'out there' ...
I was a boisterous child... But I never attempted strangulation or suffocation... Which essentially what this poor child is trying with your baby.

Please leave and protect your child from further harm.

This is NOT normal behaviour for a 4 year old. I would not let him anywhere near your daughter and I would consider going home early as this actually sounds dangerous.

He keeps doing it because no-one is telling him not to - and he doesn't instinctively know how to behave. Perhaps he isn't as well socialised as a result of the pandemic as he would have been. Take away the opportunity by making sure he can't reach her. Tell him no when he tries.

You could say something like,' we need to be gentle with babies/her name/' to him. Repeat whenever it comes up. That's a perfectly normal thing he'd have heard at toddler groups for the last three years if things had been normal. At the same time, keep her out of reach.

How have you let things get this far? The belt around the neck - how did that happen without someone noticing for eg? I have a son and daughter - both now adults, I can honestly say, hand on heart, that they were never like this as children.

Unfortunately, all of this namby pamby parenting style has consequences - you don't reason with a 4 year old, you don't politely ask them to stop - you give them a smack and a big telling off. Not a popular opinion these days, but can you IMAGINE children getting away with this 50 years ago?

I have never ever, seen so many badly behaved children, as I do these days - so all of this softly softly isn't working, is it?

We would do well to watch how adult animals discipline their young - and learn a thing or two.

I'm a primary teacher and also have a just turned 4 year old, with many 3 and 4 year old friends. His behaviour is not even close to within normal bounds - or not normal bounds to a child who is actually parented. I wouldn't allow my toddler to be picked up by another child at all, however sensible they might seem, let alone put up with the stuff around the neck etc. Like pps, I'd be going home.

I can't believe you are still there OP. You're letting a 4 year old boy hurt your child and are standing by watching it and watching other adults do nothing about it.

Are you actually questionning and challenging what they say? Are you, yourself, telling him to stop/pulling him off her?

Just think about the message you are starting to give your little girl. Boys can do what they like to you with impunity.

I have to agree with everyone saying you need to leave as soon as possible. I'm sure it would be awkward, but this must be awful for your poor DD, being tormented constantly. If his parents aren't willing to deal with the situation, you have to remove DD from it.

Don't smack your nephew – that's not going to improve any of your family relationships! But you do need to protect your daughter - she can't do it for herself.

Parent sound like classic 'I'll make any excuse I can to avoid the hard truth that my child probably has special needs' - even though they have 2 children who are doing different things making it very obvious.

However, YABU for staying. Get your poor child out of there and stop trying to teach her to stand up for herself in this situation.

Sounds like a future serial killer. Avoid.

"Help" by putting a belt around her neck, by trying to sit on a cushion he'd put on her head? Give over

ForestFae I agree with* *you. My DD at around age 2 decided to help a friend down some stairs by pushing her. Luckily the other child didn't fall but I know her mother never forgave my DD or me for that. It happened quick as a flash even with direct supervision.

I just think the cushion over the face and sitting on it and belt around the neck goes a step further than playing without realising the smaller child is likely to get hurt.

Either you realise that you much helicopter around your daughter constantly, or you leave, simple. I wouldn't expect any change in behaviour over the next 5 days, so there'll be more of the same. Unfortunately you won't be able to make the parents follow their child around monitoring behaviour. You can't let them interact independently.

It's this basically.

If you can't leave can you do independent trips out to park /shops to minimise time around them - or day trips out possible with lots of running around time and distractions boys behavior's would improve or he'd igore your DD - but you'd still have to phyically hoover as you just can't risk any repeats as it's just too serious.

This is sensible advice OP

My dd (who we think has the same issues as DS1) did the stairs thing to her brothers. Just suddenly pushed them both down, lightning fast, in front of me. They were fine but things really can happen fast especially in kids with adhd/autism as the impulse control is less.

I think maybe the boy in the op doesn’t know how to play appropriately rather than being intentionally malicious

Sounds like hell tbh and your poor daughter! Kids can be a bit rough and tumble but putting a belt round her neck and cushion over her face? Just no! No way could I last the full 10 days if it is constantly like this.

For a start, he’s so aggressive and shouty when trying to “help” my DD that I struggle to see it as “caring”.

You can tell his parents firmly "He means to help but he hurts / scares her instead and I can't allow that". You could also tell them that strangling is extremely dangerous and you can't allow it. It doesn't matter whether your nephew realises or not (well at only four he doesn't) but the truth is most kids just don't do that.

his parents blame it on being hungry or tired or a tummy ache, (but if that’s the case then he’s been hungry and tired almost constantly for the last 5 days, despite eating and sleeping at normal times…).

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. His parents are hoping for the best but he very likely has issues that will have to be confronted after he hits school. But those are his issues and his parents' to deal with. What you need to do is protect DD.

I'm on the same page as BattenbergdowntheHatches and LIndy2.

It’s weird but I’m sure I’ve read almost this exact thread here previously.

I’ll say now what I said then.

I can’t believe that any of the adults involved here have given the boy a second opportunity to endanger your child. That includes you. One incidence of behaviour which could result in serious injury to your child and you should have ensured that there was no way he had sufficient access to her to repeat it.

Every grown up here is failing your daughter. If the child’s own parents aren’t doing anything to ensure your child is safe and happy, then you have to do it. Either you stay physically between the two of them at all times, or better still, go home so your tiny daughter can relax.

I would also be wondering how a little boy of four knew about strangling people and suffocating them. I would be concerned for his welfare too.

Go home, protect your daughter

He' jealous.

Don't what ever you do, leave your little girl on her own with him. His parents are turning a blind eye whilst your child is suffering. Your little girl is too young to defend herself.

I have a 4 yo and a 2 yo both boys. No that behaviour isn’t normal. Not at all.

yes my 4 yo is rough with my 2 yo old but not like you’ve described. At all.

I would pack up and leave. Don't stay with them again.

I feel sorry for them because it will be tough to navigate this behaviour, but ultimately that is their own issue to deal with. Your responsibility is to your own child, and right now she needs you to protect her from this.