So sick of walking on eggshells but can't deal with the fall-out if I don't. Advice please!

[DWofMN]

I'm using DH's account, I'm not a MNer so please forgive me if I mess up the terminology - and apologies that this is long.

DH posted recently about an issue I'm having with my family and the general advice was either to go NC or to stand up to them - I don't feel like I can do either because DM has a temper but I love her dearly and treasure her in my life. She's an amazing GP to DS.

There are a few incidents playing on my mind and I don't know how to handle them:

DH and I are moving house to a new location, just over two hours from where we live. DM messaged me a couple of weeks ago to say that DSis was going on holiday to "nearby" the new house and, because DSis wanted to do an "adult only" activity with her DH, they had asked DM to come along and babysit DN. DM suggested we take this opportunity to show her our new house (I don't see why she needs to see it tbh) and I said I'd speak to the agent. The agent said it basically depends how busy they are - the owners won't allow us to just have free access to the house (it's vacant) which is fair enough so the agent said he'd do a viewing for DM if he has a slot available on the day but that he'd be prioritising people viewing properties who are actually going to purchase them (which is also fair enough). It also tied in well because I'm in my third trimester now and DSis still has my 0+ baby seat from when DN was little - and I need it back. So, I could tie in getting that back from her, I asked her to take it with her so I could get it back and she said she would. I've been anxious to get it back because DSis isn't the most reliable and I'm worried it'll be broken or missing parts and I need to know ASAP because it's part of our whole travel system.

On the day, the agent said that, unfortunately, he's fully booked up and there's no way he can do a viewing of the house for DM but that the vendors have said they have no problem with us going onto the property to look at the gardens and things - and we could also show DM the local area. I relayed this to DM, who was annoyed but ok, and I suggested we do an activity that's right next to the house that DS and DN would enjoy - DM agreed and we said what our ETA was and I sent a link and Google Maps location for the activity. When we arrived, about two hours later, there was no sign of DM and a few minutes later, DH got a text from DM that said "that's too far away..." (even though it's right next to the house she wanted to go and see) so DH replied asking her what she'd like to do. She replied "well, you could suggest somewhere closer for a start" - we don't know where she even is, all she's said to us is that she's staying "nearby the new house" (which was the entire reason she wanted us to book the viewing). She sent us her location, which was almost an hour away (and, by this point, we'd left the house three hours earlier, with a toddler and me being sick the whole time). DH drove the extra hour down and we met DM, DF and DN. DM was in a bad mood the whole time and told us she couldn't stay long (we met at a pub) because they needed to check out by 4pm (it was now gone 2pm) which I thought was odd because they were staying with DSis on her holiday so didn't need to "check out" but whatever. So, at 3.30pm DM went to the bathroom, I checked the time and said to DF we'd better head off to check out - at which point he said there's no rush because there's no check-out time. He said that just as DM reappeared, and she then had a big strop because she'd clearly been caught in a lie and just didn't want to spend any time with me. DF then wanted DH to help with lifting luggage so we went back to their accommodation to help, DSis came back at that point and said that she hadn't brought the car seat because she couldn't fit it in the car... So, I'd spent a day of my bank holiday driving for almost 8 hours to sit with my mum for 2 hours whilst she sulked, have DH sent rude text messages and not get my car seat back! It feels like I did nothing but try to appease her (by trying to get the viewing, by driving the extra hour to her, by pretending to accept she never said they had to check-out, by DH helping them pack, by not responding in kind to her rude messages etc) and all I got in return was her showing that she doesn't care at all.

DS has a birthday coming up and, because people insist on buying huge plastic toys that we have no space for despite us asking multiple times for them not to, we made an online list of gifts we think DS would like that are either activities or very small (a range of prices and no pressure to get anything). The online list is like a wedding gift registry where people say what they've bought so you don't end up with duplicates. For previous birthdays/Christmases, people have asked us for gift ideas and, regardless of what we suggest and even when we say "anything that isn't huge because we have no space", certain relatives insist on purchasing the biggest imaginable toys. I don't mean to sound ungrateful. One of DS's relatives purchased an activity gift from the list to take him to do. The next day, I got an irate message from DM asking why it's no longer available because she wanted to do that one. I asked around and found out, but explained to DM that DS would definitely enjoy doing the activity more than once so she can do it too if she likes - but she said no, she didn't want to do what someone else was doing. So, I had to ask the relative to give that up so DM could do it. Then, on a video call to DM later that day, DS showed her his new toy that he loves that he'd seen whilst we were out shopping (a small toy about £7). DM then got upset because she'd bought him the exact same toy for his birthday (how were we supposed to know that?) and couldn't return it because she'd bought it many months ago. I resolved that by saying we could return the one she has (still in packaging) as if it's the one we bought (they're identical and bought from the same store) and that DS can have the one he currently has a birthday gift from her - so she eventually, and grumpily, accepted that solution.

Then, last night, DM sent a link to our group chat to a holiday home booked for 2 days after my due date this summer. It's five hours drive from where I live, and mine and DH's share would be almost £1000 just for the house. The message accompanying the link said it was so that we could now go on the holiday. DM has been trying to book a family holiday abroad but we pointed out that we couldn't get a passport for the baby (and obviously can't leave a baby that's a day old with a sitter or anything) so obviously we couldn't go - so that was cancelled, with a lot of stropping and angst directed at me. DBro hasn't spoken to me since that was cancelled and DSis has only spoken to confirm she'd bring the car seat and then, when I saw him, to say she hadn't brought it. DSis then responded to the group chat with a pointed and sulky message about "oh, so this is instead of going somewhere nice abroad then?". I feel like I've ruined everyone else's summer holiday plans because I wouldn't go abroad so I feel like I have to agree with this holiday in the UK. But, in truth, we can't afford to pay thousands for a holiday right now and I don't want to book something for two days after the baby is due! I didn't reply in the group chat because I didn't know what to say so then I got a message late last night from DM saying that she's going to phone me today to "nail down my plans for July and August". I can't "nail down my plans" - the baby could come at almost any point in July/August (due date is the very start of August), so my only plan is to be prepared for that.

I feel like the stress of appeasing her is just too much - but it's so much less stress than either confronting her or ignoring her. So, there's no option which isn't stressful. I'm so ill, I have HG and I'm over a stone lighter than my booking-in weight and my weight is going down again. I just want to curl up in a ball, ignore everybody and cry - but that won't resolve the issue. She's going to phone me and I just don't know what to say, I don't even want to answer.

What do I do? I think I just needed to write all of that out.

Thank you for everyone's input. Disappointed but not surprised that the advice is the same - either kick off, go NC or put up. I hoped there was an option I've missed or some way that I could just fix it all - but if I can't think of a way and no one else on here can think of a way then I guess I need to give up the fairytale thinking this can happen without any fall-out.

I don't know why I find it so hard. I'm not a particularly conflict-averse person, I deal with conflict every day in my professional life. If I were reading this situation, I'd definitely think "just say no" and "stop it", "grow up", "get a backbone" etc but it just isn't that simple with all the other parts of everything that's going on. I know I should do this, I know I should say "no", I know I should stand up for us more - but I just don't know how to actually do it.

My DS absolutely adores her - he thinks she's the best person ever. When we met at the pub, and she was in a bad mood, she just went off with DS and DN but wouldn't engage with me, DF or DH. DS and DN were playing happily with her and she was very happy when she was with them. I do worry that this will change as DS grows but, for now, he seems much happier because he has her - which makes everything much harder. He talks non-stop about her and tells everyone about her - he doesn't cling to me at all, so I feel like maybe I'm the problem.

DM still hasn't called.

DH absolutely is a saint, he has unending patience and I really do appreciate him. He's very supportive and it helps that he gets on well with everyone, especially DF (who is no stress at all) and DBros, as well as BIL. He's very diplomatic and level-headed. I don't think anything will break us up, but I don't know how close he is to the end of his tether - he might just not be telling me. He's NC with his own mother for behaviour far, far, far beyond anything DM has ever even come close to and it's caused a lot of difficulty in his family dynamic (although he gets on well with everyone else in his family and one of his DSis are also NC with his DM) so I'm scared of taking on those difficulties on my side too.

Just to clarify, I don't live near DM now, I'm still a couple of hours away - and the new house is just as far from her. We also don't usually do holidays together, we haven't actually had one with all the siblings there since I was 6 (DSis is quite a bit older). DM has been wanting a family holiday for a few years now and there was one booked for 2020 but then Covid hit. DBro lives abroad and is coming back to the UK this summer so that's why DM wants to do a family holiday this year. I also have another DBro who also lives abroad (different country from the DBro coming back) and he won't be coming on the holiday.

All the other posters are right and you know this. However, it's hard. I think you have started on the right idea by writing down those incidents in such detail. I'm sure there are more. Write them down as you did above and gradually you will see the picture building up and you will see patterns emerge and the roles that family have been given or given themselves will become clearer, as will your role.

You don't have to post them here. Do it for yourself. After a while I bet you will be able to forsee how things will pan out. You can play family drama bingo with the next drama. eg. There's a family christening in June. Will your mother a) Expect you to go and say that you're letting everyone down if you don't. b) Require you to give her and someone else important in the ceremony a lift there and no-one else can do it. c) If you are too pregnant to go she will require your husband to do the said drive leaving you alone. Etc etc. You and him can place bets. Have a laugh with it. Go on.

I would have sent a message back in the group chat that “as you all know I am due beginning of august so will be staying close to home in the weeks leading up to and after the baby is born”.

And if you can’t stamp your feet and be demanding, PP have good advice on bland but cheery grey-rock technique.

“We can’t come on holiday this summer, we’re staying at home with the baby. Hope you all have a lovely time.”

[Pushback, feet stamping, unreasonable behaviour]

”I know it would be lovely to all be together but as I said, we’re not able to go on holiday this year.”

[Pushback, feet stamping, unreasonable behaviour]

”Mum, we’re staying at home. We’ll enjoy seeing you when you visit.”

etc

YOU. ARE. BEING. BULLIED.

You have three choices - put up with it in perpetuity, fight back, or walk away. If you won't do the last two, then you're just going to have to put up with it. And yes, I know it's not easy, but that doesn't change anything.

So your mums a moody, entitled, overbearing, boundary crossing adult baby and you want her in your life and don't want to rock the boat because you know she'll react to your boundaries in a volatile way to get what she wants?

If you put boundaries in place, and she consistently manipulates, belittles, and engages in childish ways for you to out those boundaries down time after time then the only boundary left is to go no contact.

Otherwise you're enabling. And you're expecting your husband and family to put up with it too.

There’s no way to put a stop to this doesn’t involve you having to woman up and face the fallout, unless of course faking your own death and leaving the country is an option.

Putting up just prolongs the agony. She rides roughshod over you because you let her, and she’ll keep doing it for the same reason. As frightening as it may be, because she’s trained you to be scared of it, you will be okay. You’re not a child she has power over, the only power she has now over you is the power you give her. Long term, it will liberate you.

"So, I had to ask the relative to give that up so DM could do it".

No, you didn't need to do that AT ALL.

Nor did you need to do something as ridiculous as ask the Estate Agent if they could accommodate your nosey interfering mother. EAs are not there for this kind of thing, not within their JD at all!

And why on earth you would need to get your poor DH to drive 2 hours to reclaim (supposedly) a car seat you had kindly lent your negligent sister, god only knows. It is your sister's job to bring it back.

Ask her!

Of course you cannot go on hol in the middle of your expected due dates, and why on earth would you want to go on holiday with these people at all?

OP, no wonder your poor DH is exasperated.

You have nothing to lose by saying 'NO', and ignoring the sulks and tantrums. As you can see they have zero respect or consideration for you anyway.

Just say very clearly :"I cannot commit to any holiday dates this year - and it doesn't suit us to do so, so best you all go ahead and make the arrangements that suit you best without us. Have fun!"

Practice some things to say. "No, that isn't convenient for me - so I'll leave that with you" "Oh, dear shame about the toy, I had no idea, how could I? Never mind!" "Not today Mum, not possible, I'll get in touch soon" Practice. Say things out loud.

Thank you to everyone who's suggested what I should say but, as some others have pointed out, my family don't like me mentioning the pregnancy so if I bring up the due date or the baby as a reason why we can't attend then I'll just have to endure a talk about how I'm not being sensitive or kind to my brother and his girlfriend who have been TTC and undergoing IVF. Then the whole point I was trying to make will be disregarded and everyone will carry on as if I never tried to protest.

I'm sorry but I can't bring myself to read that wall of confusing text

Jesus fucking Christ. These people are not good. Bin the lot of them. Please.

Exactly what @NoSquirrels said. Stick that in the group chat and keep repeating it. As a grandmother and a reasonably decent human I cannot imagine behaving in the way your ‘d’m does to you. Where is her kindness/empathy/consideration for you, your husband and the new baby? Just keep saying like a broken record, ‘We’ll be staying home with baby and cannot make any other plans. We’ll not be going on holiday any time soon.’
You HAVE to deal with her and the fallout. It won’t be as bad as you imagine, and if it is you would have to go low contact for your health. And I wouldn’t be in a hurry to encourage the relationship between her and your ds to be honest. Someone who treats you the way she does is too toxic to allow near your child.

You have an addiction to trying to fix things. You have an addiction to being needed and an absolute addiction to being 'nice' and saintly. It makes you feel good about yourself, all this sorting out your mother's/whoever else's problems. It is so ingrained that you imagine it is a normal way to live, you have dragged your partner into it all and you are even asking us how to be an even better addict.

Like any addiction it is hard to give it up. But the very first step before even starting to give it up is acknowledging that you have the addiction in the first place. Until you do that, you will send your life inviting your family members to enter into co-dependency with you all the time, so that you can feel good about your saintly self all over again.

Look at it, and understand what is actually going on.

I voted YABU only because you’ve had the advice. You are constantly doing the same things and expecting different results and that obviously isn’t going to work.

I think kicking off a bit would be best, tbh, but you could just try scaling back the appeasement. Agree with her view of things to her face but don’t do anything about it. Stop trying to fix the problems she manufactures. Things like wanting to give a gift to your DS that he’s already got - just agree with her that it’s awful but don’t offer a solution or agree to do anything about it if she suggests something (“Oh no. I can’t do that. That would be awful too.”). There’s a technique called medium chill that’s a bit less drastic than going NC but it does require you to be able to distance yourself emotionally from the tantruming.

And try to stop taking other people’s disappointment to heart. Your sister’s remark about not going abroad may well just be her way of handling your DM. Voicing disappointment so DM has less leverage over her because DSis has already made it clear it she’s already “putting up”. Or she’s just disappointed they won’t be going abroad. Doesn't mean she’s blaming you. Doesn’t stop her wanting a holiday abroad. She might be blaming you, she might not. My point is - You don’t have to take that sort of thing on yourself, you’re creating your own stress there. Let other people be disappointed by life. It isn’t down to you to make their lives perfect.

They are bullies who will continue to treat you that way as long as you let them. Your DM doesn’t have a healthy relationship with your children either - she’s undermining you in order to raise herself- this manipulation will only get worse and will affect the relationship you have with your children where they will stop respecting you and start to imitate the way she treats you. For your childrens sake - go low contact now. They need to see what healthy boundaries are in a relationship.

It will be hard and will take a lot of work since you are used to the dynamics, but the easiest thing for you to do is to stop engaging. If you can’t say no with just a short sentence explanation then just ignore the question altogether. Best to address her by text, but if you’re on the phone just repeat your no and short explanation for any follow up questions. Don’t engage further.

so examples for some of the scenarios you put:

1. someone buys a toy that your DM was going to buy from the registry - “no, someone’s bought it already”
2. your DM has bought a toy that your son already has “no, he already has it”
3. your DM is hours late to an agreed venue “shame, maybe another time” and go home.
4. your DM is refusing to speak to you on a trip out “let’s meet up when you’re feeling better” and go home.
5. your DM wants you to go on just after due date “no, we’re not going to go away within first few months of baby’s life”.

The key is not to engage with any follow up questions on the subject or offer up any solutions after you’ve said no. It’s not your problem to solve. That’s how she draws you in and guilt trips you into changing your mind into doing things her way at your great inconvenience.

It will be very very hard so I think this is the best way to change the dynamics as anything that requires lots of talking or conversation, she will win at - she’s a master manipulator so you can’t try take her on at her own game. The less said to her or your sister the better.

Oh and forget the car seat and anything else you may want back from your family. Anything that can be used by them to hold you at ransom, just let go of it. It’s a small price to pay for your freedom.

This was really hurtful and upsetting to read - because it's absolutely true. You're completely right. I enjoy fixing the problems, I like that I can make her demands happen. I like that people acknowledge when I've done 50,000 things at once and pulled it all together and it worked and everyone's happy.

I don't know how to accept that I cannot fix this. If I knew the baby would come on a specific day and be healthy enough to not need hospital then I'd make it work - but I don't know that, so I can't commit to the holiday. Also, increasingly, I can't meet these demands on my own - I can't drive right now, I can't lift heavy things, I need DH to do those things for me. So, when my family require that I do them, he ends up having to do them by extension.

It feels like if I stop appeasing her then I've failed to make her happy. And I won't be happy if I've failed. I don't want to be a failure.

Haven’t RTFT. You say you’re not a regular MNetter, but you posted about a lot of this stuff a few days ago - unreasonable family, not able to talk about pregnancy because your brother is TTC, etc.?

@moggiek - the OP explained that. Her DH posts that thread and she has used his account now to,post again.

I said at the very start of the OP:

"I'm using DH's account, I'm not a MNer so please forgive me if I mess up the terminology - and apologies that this is long.

DH posted recently about an issue I'm having with my family..."

Or rather to post herself.

Wow.

Go in group chat - say just keep repeating you can't do those months but you are sure they'll all have a lovely time.

The Broken Record Technique

Maybe just try delaying reponses to them for the moment - giving you time to think what is best for you rather than get caught up in all the drama and running around.

As you live some distance away - then communication is likely more common by remote means - phone, group chats e-mails - so putting in the thinking space should be possible.

OP your family are mad. Your mother is the ringleader and everyone enables her.

let your DH take over communications as others have said.

All of their requests are totally unreasonable. I’ve been through infertility and ivf and have been upset at others getting pregnant but I’m not selfish or bonkers enough to demand that their pregnancy is not mentioned. It’s bonkers.

You definitely need a lot of therapy to figure out why you pander to it all and to find ways to help you deal with them.

It feels like if I stop appeasing her then I've failed to make her happy. And I won't be happy if I've failed. I don't want to be a failure.

You need counselling to help you deal with this and change your mindset.

You're not a failure; you can't control or change how other people act. You're not God. All you can change is how you react.

Do you act like this with everyone else in your life?

And does your mum try to make you happy? No! The opposite. So why bother?

Thank you to everyone who's suggested what I should say but, as some others have pointed out, my family don't like me mentioning the pregnancy so if I bring up the due date or the baby as a reason why we can't attend then I'll just have to endure a talk about how I'm not being sensitive or kind

Fuck that noise.
Your family are not the law. They donlt get to dictate what words can come out of your mouth or be typed onto a screen.
Say what you need to say - & then CHOOSE NOT TO ENDURE A TALK.
People can only talk at you if your let them.

Besides - it's batshit. You have to go on holiday on your due date because - what? - your family are all pretending you are not pregnant?

about how I'm not being sensitive or kind to my brother and his girlfriend who have been TTC and undergoing IVF.
"How bizarre - & you are not being sensitive or kind to me, who has been very, very unwell throughout this pregnancy. Anyway, as I said - I will be giving birth at the time you plan to be on holiday, so we will not be attending - have fun whever you end up going."

Then the whole point I was trying to make will be disregarded and everyone will carry on as if I never tried to protest.
Has it never occurred to you to stop "protesing"? To stop defending your decisions - & instead, simply state them, then walk away?
They can't "carry on" if you drop the rope.
They can't force you to go on holiday.
They can't make you answer to them.

Remember this - outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/jade-dont-justify-argue-defend-explain - & stop waiting for their permission to have your words heard. Start just saying the words, then leaving the words to do the work for you. Walk away, stop responding, STOP JUSTIFYING.
Your relatives need to learn that you are implacable about this ridiculous holiday.
Implacability doesn't work when you are hesitant, or try to persuade people to accept your point of view. You simply state your point of view ... and then leave them to digest it, or not, in their time - because you are no longer listening.

You or DH get on the group chat. Use one of the short suggested phrases - THEN DISENGAGE.
Mute the chat - hell, leave the fucking chat group. You're not going to see a single kind or supportive word from your awful relatives, so why bother keeping that line of communication open? Just say your piece, then leave them to rant about it. You won't be listening, because you are taking a break to focus on your health, your baby, & your DH & DC.

But if you're going to go low (or preferably no) contact, what does it matter if the shit hits the fan when you mention your pregnancy? You won't be there to hear it or deal with the aftermath.
Your DC may miss their GPS but they will soon become a distant memory. I think you need to consider that the long term affects of witnessing your toxic relationship will outway any positives in theirs with their GPS.
But based on your responses I don't think you're ready to stand up for yourself yet