So sick of walking on eggshells but can't deal with the fall-out if I don't. Advice please!

[DWofMN]

I'm using DH's account, I'm not a MNer so please forgive me if I mess up the terminology - and apologies that this is long.

DH posted recently about an issue I'm having with my family and the general advice was either to go NC or to stand up to them - I don't feel like I can do either because DM has a temper but I love her dearly and treasure her in my life. She's an amazing GP to DS.

There are a few incidents playing on my mind and I don't know how to handle them:

DH and I are moving house to a new location, just over two hours from where we live. DM messaged me a couple of weeks ago to say that DSis was going on holiday to "nearby" the new house and, because DSis wanted to do an "adult only" activity with her DH, they had asked DM to come along and babysit DN. DM suggested we take this opportunity to show her our new house (I don't see why she needs to see it tbh) and I said I'd speak to the agent. The agent said it basically depends how busy they are - the owners won't allow us to just have free access to the house (it's vacant) which is fair enough so the agent said he'd do a viewing for DM if he has a slot available on the day but that he'd be prioritising people viewing properties who are actually going to purchase them (which is also fair enough). It also tied in well because I'm in my third trimester now and DSis still has my 0+ baby seat from when DN was little - and I need it back. So, I could tie in getting that back from her, I asked her to take it with her so I could get it back and she said she would. I've been anxious to get it back because DSis isn't the most reliable and I'm worried it'll be broken or missing parts and I need to know ASAP because it's part of our whole travel system.

On the day, the agent said that, unfortunately, he's fully booked up and there's no way he can do a viewing of the house for DM but that the vendors have said they have no problem with us going onto the property to look at the gardens and things - and we could also show DM the local area. I relayed this to DM, who was annoyed but ok, and I suggested we do an activity that's right next to the house that DS and DN would enjoy - DM agreed and we said what our ETA was and I sent a link and Google Maps location for the activity. When we arrived, about two hours later, there was no sign of DM and a few minutes later, DH got a text from DM that said "that's too far away..." (even though it's right next to the house she wanted to go and see) so DH replied asking her what she'd like to do. She replied "well, you could suggest somewhere closer for a start" - we don't know where she even is, all she's said to us is that she's staying "nearby the new house" (which was the entire reason she wanted us to book the viewing). She sent us her location, which was almost an hour away (and, by this point, we'd left the house three hours earlier, with a toddler and me being sick the whole time). DH drove the extra hour down and we met DM, DF and DN. DM was in a bad mood the whole time and told us she couldn't stay long (we met at a pub) because they needed to check out by 4pm (it was now gone 2pm) which I thought was odd because they were staying with DSis on her holiday so didn't need to "check out" but whatever. So, at 3.30pm DM went to the bathroom, I checked the time and said to DF we'd better head off to check out - at which point he said there's no rush because there's no check-out time. He said that just as DM reappeared, and she then had a big strop because she'd clearly been caught in a lie and just didn't want to spend any time with me. DF then wanted DH to help with lifting luggage so we went back to their accommodation to help, DSis came back at that point and said that she hadn't brought the car seat because she couldn't fit it in the car... So, I'd spent a day of my bank holiday driving for almost 8 hours to sit with my mum for 2 hours whilst she sulked, have DH sent rude text messages and not get my car seat back! It feels like I did nothing but try to appease her (by trying to get the viewing, by driving the extra hour to her, by pretending to accept she never said they had to check-out, by DH helping them pack, by not responding in kind to her rude messages etc) and all I got in return was her showing that she doesn't care at all.

DS has a birthday coming up and, because people insist on buying huge plastic toys that we have no space for despite us asking multiple times for them not to, we made an online list of gifts we think DS would like that are either activities or very small (a range of prices and no pressure to get anything). The online list is like a wedding gift registry where people say what they've bought so you don't end up with duplicates. For previous birthdays/Christmases, people have asked us for gift ideas and, regardless of what we suggest and even when we say "anything that isn't huge because we have no space", certain relatives insist on purchasing the biggest imaginable toys. I don't mean to sound ungrateful. One of DS's relatives purchased an activity gift from the list to take him to do. The next day, I got an irate message from DM asking why it's no longer available because she wanted to do that one. I asked around and found out, but explained to DM that DS would definitely enjoy doing the activity more than once so she can do it too if she likes - but she said no, she didn't want to do what someone else was doing. So, I had to ask the relative to give that up so DM could do it. Then, on a video call to DM later that day, DS showed her his new toy that he loves that he'd seen whilst we were out shopping (a small toy about £7). DM then got upset because she'd bought him the exact same toy for his birthday (how were we supposed to know that?) and couldn't return it because she'd bought it many months ago. I resolved that by saying we could return the one she has (still in packaging) as if it's the one we bought (they're identical and bought from the same store) and that DS can have the one he currently has a birthday gift from her - so she eventually, and grumpily, accepted that solution.

Then, last night, DM sent a link to our group chat to a holiday home booked for 2 days after my due date this summer. It's five hours drive from where I live, and mine and DH's share would be almost £1000 just for the house. The message accompanying the link said it was so that we could now go on the holiday. DM has been trying to book a family holiday abroad but we pointed out that we couldn't get a passport for the baby (and obviously can't leave a baby that's a day old with a sitter or anything) so obviously we couldn't go - so that was cancelled, with a lot of stropping and angst directed at me. DBro hasn't spoken to me since that was cancelled and DSis has only spoken to confirm she'd bring the car seat and then, when I saw him, to say she hadn't brought it. DSis then responded to the group chat with a pointed and sulky message about "oh, so this is instead of going somewhere nice abroad then?". I feel like I've ruined everyone else's summer holiday plans because I wouldn't go abroad so I feel like I have to agree with this holiday in the UK. But, in truth, we can't afford to pay thousands for a holiday right now and I don't want to book something for two days after the baby is due! I didn't reply in the group chat because I didn't know what to say so then I got a message late last night from DM saying that she's going to phone me today to "nail down my plans for July and August". I can't "nail down my plans" - the baby could come at almost any point in July/August (due date is the very start of August), so my only plan is to be prepared for that.

I feel like the stress of appeasing her is just too much - but it's so much less stress than either confronting her or ignoring her. So, there's no option which isn't stressful. I'm so ill, I have HG and I'm over a stone lighter than my booking-in weight and my weight is going down again. I just want to curl up in a ball, ignore everybody and cry - but that won't resolve the issue. She's going to phone me and I just don't know what to say, I don't even want to answer.

What do I do? I think I just needed to write all of that out.

I don’t believe she’s broken her ankle. She’s so manipulative and I cannot believe that she isn’t supporting you in your pregnancy. She should be wrapping you up in cotton wool. You’re her baby and you’re having a baby!!!
meeting my arse! A holiday two days after you’re due? Like fuck. Not ONE sensible person would ever think this is a good idea.

Excellent advice

I felt that the judgement on DM was quite harsh

It’s really common for people with abusive parents to be incredibly defensive of them to the point of denial. It’s a coping mechanism. Facing the reality of the situation is, understandably, very painful.

But you are starting to see clearly and that is the first step towards healing. I would encourage you to continue on that path. Not just for your sake, but for the sake of your children.

But, in truth, I did think that your perspectives were off somewhat, because this is one snapshot of our relationship and I think our relationship has a lot of positives - which I obviously haven't conveyed very well.

Again, very common. No one is abusive 100% of the time.

Ok so this is a tactic. Unfortunately one used by manipulative abusers. When they feel their victim is starting to pull away something really bad happens that is used to test you and drag you back in.

It is text book. Next you will have flying monkeys. Other siblings, an aunt or uncle, someone, will start saying that she is all upset and you must attend to her.

Even before A&E got as bad as it did, I was in for 7 hours and a break not confirmed until the next day when an actual doctor was available to look at the x-ray. I'm not saying she's lying, she might genuinely believe she's broken it but can't see how she would be out already.

What can you do for it anyway? She has other children and a husband to support her, you aren't able to at the moment. Tell her you hope her wait in A&E isn't long and wish her well. There's nothing more than you can do.

So, just for today, make a decision not to play

This. This is a game designed for you to lose, if it looks like you’re winning she’ll up here game so you lose. Same with the holiday, designed for you to lose. You either put the money up and then can’t go (which sounds like her plan, and made to look like it’s DB grand return home, which you are being deliberately annoying. You won’t win.
so stop playing her games:

The Ankle, I agree designed for you to be pulled back - maybe message a nice sibling - before they message you - Make it reasonable - Sorry I can’t help mum more with her broken ankle, let me know if I can don anything this end - making it clear you aren’t up for traveling.

Agree with this. No abuser is abusive 100% of the time. I’m sure even some of Harold Shipman’s patients thought he was a lovely doctor. The only acceptable amount of abuse and manipulation from parent to child is none.

This poster is absolutely correct that until you’ve done the work to confront upsetting truths about the nature of your relationship, it feels like you must defend the abuser and normalise their behaviour. I did the same with my dad. I even used to insist his parenting was preferable to other parents because it made me more resilient (there’s obviously a lot more to it but I won’t bore you with my history).

Deep down, I always knew something wasn’t right about the way he behaved, though. I tried so hard to suppress that thought and tell myself it wasn’t that bad, but I knew the truth. Actually confronting and accepting it was really hard and upsetting because it meant accepting that there had been a lot wrong with my childhood, and I didn’t want that to be true. But it was true, and it’s true for you too. Her behaviour is abuse. Trust me, once you accept this and reduce or cut contact your life will improve infinitely.

Oh you poor thing, please don't feel stupid.
You have been conditioned from early childhood to accept the crazy behaviour as normal and acceptable. It is neither.

I look back at my parents' behaviour, particularly my mother, and am horrified I didn't run years ago. The effect on me and my children has been so damaging. You are a lot younger than me, I know this is really hard for you, but you are getting some great advice here.

Most people here would not be surprised if it turned out that the ankle wasn't broken after all, "just a bad sprain", but as already pointed out, you are expected to ask how high you should jump.

Your mother has no problem ignoring your pregnancy. A new human being coming into this world, her grandchild. And she is ok with ignoring this. I think this is your permission to ignore whatever you feel like ignoring. (In my opinion, ignore everything to do with her and those supporting her).

It's a tough road ahead of you, but I think your eyes are opening which is a major step. Imagine dealing with this shit for the rest of your life? This goes on through generations until someone calls a halt. Let this someone be you.

My colleagues dm said her dad had had a heart attack to get attention.

It is text book. Next you will have flying monkeys. Other siblings, an aunt or uncle, someone, will start saying that she is all upset and you must attend to her.

Yes OP, better pack you bags, you’ll be going on a guilt trip.

I even used to insist his parenting was preferable to other parents because it made me more resilient.

Oh, I can relate to that. Our brains are really effective at adapting to our environment and protecting us from truths we aren’t ready to face.

This goes on through generations until someone calls a halt. Let this someone be you.

Let this be what gets you through the difficult road ahead. Knowing that it would stop with me kept me strong and determined to not take the “easier”, familiar path of non resistance. With time, I promise that path will look a lot less easier to you. It won’t even be an option.

Your mother is abusive and has traumatised you and your siblings. You're all stuck in a cycle with her. People pleasing and wanting to fix it (especially to avoid an explosion) is a learned trauma response. I vote NC. She will never change and your sister is just as nasty.

And also: ignoring your pregnancy and the existence of your child? But expects you to leap when she has "a broken ankle". I'd tell her to swivel and break the other one, but that's just me. Go NC, OP. Before she inflicts this behaviour on your kids.

A brilliant PP called @thefoundations posted this a while back.
I hope it helps you & DH, OP

“Don’t rock the boat” – dealing with Cluster-B’s

I've been thinking about this phrase a lot lately, about how unfair it is. Because we aren't the ones rocking the boat. It's the crazy lady jumping up and down and running side to side. Not the one sitting in the corner quietly not giving a fuck.

At some point in her youth, Mum/MIL gave the boat a little nudge. And look how everyone jumped to steady the boat! So she does it again, and again. Soon her family is in the habit of swaying to counteract the crazy. She moves left, they move right, balance is restored (temporarily). Life goes on. People move on to boats of their own.

The boat-rocker can't survive in a boat by herself. She's never had to face the consequences of her rocking. She'll tip over. So she finds an enabler: someone so proud of his boat-steadying skills that he secretly (or not so secretly) lives for the rocking.

The boat-rocker escalates. The boat-steadier can't manage alone, but can't let the boat tip. After all, he's the best boat-steadier ever, and that can't be true if his boat capsizes, so therefore his boat can't capsize. How can they fix the situation?

Ballast!

And the next generation of boat-steadiers is born.

A born boat-steadier doesn't know what solid ground feels like. He's so used to the constant swaying that anything else feels wrong and he'll fall over. There's a good chance the boat-rocker never taught him to swim either. He'll jump at the slightest twitch like his life depends on it, because it did.

When you're in their boat, you're expected to help steady it. When you decline, the other boat-steadiers get resentful. Look at you, just sitting there while they do all the work! They don't see that you aren't the one making the boat rock. They might not even see the life rafts available for them to get out. All they know is that the boat can't be allowed to tip, and you're not helping.

Now you and your DH get a boat of your own. With him not there, the balance of the boat changes. The remaining boat-steadiers have to work even harder.

While a rocking boat is most concerning to those inside, it does cause ripples. The nearby boats start to worry. They're getting splashed! Somebody do something!

So the flying monkeys are dispatched. Can't you and DH see how much better it is for everyone (else) if you just get back on the boat and keep it steady? It would make their lives so much easier.

You know what would be easier? If they all just chucked the bitch overboard.

‘Sorry to hear about your ankle, I hope it doesn’t affect your holiday, what a shame!’

One thing I want to try and let you know, because 7 years after taking the decision to go no contact with my dad, please don’t think you are unworthy of her love. The issue of her behaviour is not because of you. The issue is her and her alone. She is responsible for her behaviour, not you. It has taken me a long time to mourn my childhood and the loss. I felt unloveable for a long time. Realising that I wasn’t unloveable and that no matter what I did wouldn’t change the way he treated me has taken a long time. You are worth more and you have a loving little family with DH. Enjoy them and forget the rest, take it one day at a time.

Op I hope you're ok. This is a lot to take in. I'm guessing all this advice is a bit overwhelming.

Reading this has upset me as well. It's horrible.

The advice you've been given by other posters is really good. To keep communication as short as possible, as few words, neutral, don't get drawn in to giving excuses and reasons.

The ankle thing is making me feel a bit queasy, I can't really put my finger on it, something doesn't sit right.

You don't need to go to a meeting, say you have an appointment, that's it.

I hope it all works out for you. Please don't expose your children to this. You might not think it's damaging but it is. They will see you getting stressed and how you're treated and it will affect their development. They may grow up thinking it's OK to treat people like that (you say your son worships your mum). That's frightening.

Take a deep breath - you have your husband and son, and you live far away from her. Stop letting her abuse you.

Drive to your sisters house and get the seat.

Say no to any holiday in August and July. Tell them to do what they want without you as you're due your baby.

Let them whine and just repeat 'I said to do what YOU want are we are unable to commit'.

My DS absolutely adores her - he thinks she's the best person ever. When we met at the pub, and she was in a bad mood, she just went off with DS and DN but wouldn't engage with me, DF or DH. DS and DN were playing happily with her and she was very happy when she was with them. I do worry that this will change as DS grows but, for now, he seems much happier because he has her - which makes everything much harder. He talks non-stop about her and tells everyone about her - he doesn't cling to me at all, so I feel like mayb

Kids forget easily. Honestly he won't care after a while if he sees her less. Also what is she saying when you're not around to make him cling so much? Hmmm

Write back "Excuses, Excuses, Excuses!"

I do feel for you - it's all incredibly hard to deal with and very destabilising

Also, trusting online advice is a dicey game, but honestly a lot of what posters are telling you to do comes because we've been there and can recognise the behaviour, and you're not in a place yet where you can see it for what it is.

You can respond to her message with a perfectly pleasant ' Sorry to hear that, hope you feel better soon.' That's it. You do not need to go to the meeting. You do not have to explain yourself. Then mute the conversation, because she's only going to get worse as you're challenging the status quo, and she's going to be furious about it.

But, nothing's going to happen. She can't actually do anything. Try it; it will be uncomfortable but you can deal with the anxiety, you really can.

@DWofMN

I feel really sorry for you, OP. You've got yourself (or been trapped by your not at all "dear/darling" mother to be her whipping boy really. Every interaction with her seems to be manipulative and intimidating from her side and you go into ever increasing circles of panic and appeasement. Where had this got you so far?

If you are unable to help yourself, perhaps your dear husband can help. He's been through, it seems, pretty negative situations with his own family as he's LC/NC with some of them and can help you be stronger and more assertive than you currently are if he agrees, and if you let him. In fact, I'm sure he can take charge, with your permission, and roar back at these people (I count your sister and father in this as her "flying monkeys" who treat you so badly.

In this instance he can stop being so reasonable and saint like and tell them how it is. And block them all for a while so the two of you can get some peace and space to get on with your own lives as a family. But that will only work if you support him, not undermining what action the two of you have agreed.

Also, I'm unsure if your new baby (congratulations by the way!) is a girl or not? Imagine your daughter writing the posts you've put on this thread about HER mother or mother in law? How do you think she'd feel? How would you counsel her?

Time to take a deep breath and grasp the nettle I think. It will hurt you - but the results for you and the family you and your husband are growing, will be worth it. Good luck for a gentler future. 🌹

If replying with something simple helps you to not keep trying to decide what to do then I agree that a quick ‘sorry to hear that, hope you get seen soon’ would work.

I mean, you could also reply asking her not to mention her hospital trip to you as it’s too traumatic after all your recent trips…

Oh also - if she genuinely has broken her ankle, then it doesn’t change anything. And if you’d broken yours, I’m guessing there’s be no sympathy. I expect this is only Act One.

Also, trusting online advice is a dicey game, but honestly a lot of what posters are telling you to do comes because we've been there and can recognise the behaviour, and you're not in a place yet where you can see it for what it is.

There are so many people who have been and are in your position OP.

Recognising the behaviour is key. The similarities in parents like this is uncanny - almost as if they are all reading from the same playbook. Once you recognise it, the behaviour is utterly predictable. Pathetic, even. It’s all about changing how you respond to it. You’re an adult and they have no power over you, they only have the power that you give them.

I would also point you in the direction of the Out of The Fog website and forum. It has a smaller membership, so you won’t be overwhelmed in terms of responses, but all the members are in and have been in similar situations to you. There is a wealth of knowledge there and you would be in very, very good hands as you begin your journey of coming out of the fog.

As far as Mumsnet goes though, the responses to you have been spot on. Please keep posting, you don’t have to do this alone.

You are right, in that none of us understand the full relationship with your DM and family, as we’re only getting a snapshot and advising on that.
From what you’ve said so far, it sounds as though “no” isn’t an answer your DM is willing to accept and your siblings won’t get involved (possibly because they don’t want the anger to be directed their way).
Seems to me that factual replies (like the one you sent about your due date) followed by non responses to her aggressive behaviour and comments will help to keep you sane. It’s hard for you to be at fault, if you’re just saying no thanks and pointing out the facts of the situation. If you can’t make the holiday, you can’t make it. They have the option to go ahead without you, or to postpone it to a time that works for you (assuming you’d want to go at all). Step back. You’ve let them know you can’t go on the date they want. Where they go from here is their choice with the options they have.