To think the stigmatisation of borderline personality disorder is awful

[PonderingBPD]

Most people with BPD have experienced alot of trauma, typically during childhood, hence the disorder which has alot of parallels to complex PTSD. It's not something people choose to have and is actually soul destroying to live with.

Why are people with the condition spoken of and thought of so negatively? It's essentially victim blaming.

AIBU?

I don't think we are talking about the same thing, at all.

The description of the mothers in this thread (pulling stuff out the wardrobes, smashing up bedrooms, voice changes when the phone rings) sound very like my own. I never spoke about it to anyone.

The therapist said that's why I was attracted to and stayed with the BPD ex - it felt familiar and I was prepared to make excuses for him. They said it was trauma bonding.

This is a really interesting to read @PonderingBPD. The main difference I can make out between your own lived experience with BPD and my experience of having a family member with it is, that you say your anger is directed inwards. My family member’s anger is directed outwards and so I have been on the receiving end of verbal and physical anger (abuse) and it's been very hard to handle.

Also, you mention black and white thinking and someone being all good, or all bad. That's another aspect I struggle with. I'm a very sensitive person and when my family member gets upset at me (often for some perceived slight or offence) the fact they turn their back on me, ignore me etc... Really upsets me. Often I have no idea what I've done and so I find myself constantly on eggshells around them and policing everything I say or do lest I accidentally upset them. It's really difficult. I know they can't help feeling how they do and perceiving me / the world how they do, but it hurts to be on the receiving end and I've had my own issues with self esteem in the past and their treatment of me makes that worse, so I've had no choice but the pull away to protect my own mental health.

I think you sound very self aware and again that's something that's different with my family member. They don't ever seem to look inwards or be aware of their behaviour, or if they do, they've never shared that with me. So there is never any acknowledgement that they've hurt or upset someone because they felt overwhelmed with their feelings. So it never feels like there is any closure to their outbursts or periods of silent treatment, again, this is something that I struggle with because I am a sensitive person, who finds it hard to brush these things off.

I suppose my own experience would make me wary of someone who was diagnosed BPD but I do have empathy for the condition and I feel sad that it's something that they (you) have to struggle with.

@SparrowLand @TheNeverEndingSt0ry I am sorry that my post frustrated/ upset you.

I was clear I wasn't an expert and clear I was basing it on my own experience, and acknowledged that there may be other types/ presentations of BPD. I have also more than one experience - another more tangential and a third which was just much worse and is too raw for me to talk about. And I have read books about it to try to cope, so am not totally ignorant. I would also add that all three could be loving, thoughtful, and warm - sometimes for extended periods, if they were feeling safe. They also had episodes of 'turning their anger inwards' when they would withdraw and cry intensely, rather than abuse others (though the traumatic effect of living with this should also not be underestimated). Ultimately, however, these three had a very detrimental effect on their loved ones well-being, who would walk on eggshells and bend over backwards to try to 'keep them in the happy/safe place' or 'get them back there' when they weren't. There was an experience of one's own needs and identity vanishing in the face of the other person's overwhelming need. And having that happen while being screamed at and told you are not loving enough is extremely hard.

Neither would ever have acknowledged their abusiveness. Their understanding of the problem was that we were never caring enough and we just didn't understand. One of the people is one of the best, most high integrity people I know in terms of her character. But that doesn't change the fact that she was abusive for two solid years and destroyed our relationship due to her BPD.

OP, you said that the stigma isn't fair and compared it to having negative assumptions about a whole minority group based on 2/3 negative experiences of people from that group. It's really not quite the same. If these experiences had been with, say, Japanese people, there 'Japaneseness' would be totally irrelevant and it would be stupid and stigmatising to draw a connection. These three people were that way and treated their loved ones that way because of their BPD. Their behaviours are common hallmarks of their illness.

Nevertheless, I fully acknowledge that this is still limited experience of BPD, and there are many other ways for it to manifest. I do also recognize that people with BPD are often intensely suffering. It must be an absolutely awful thing to live with, and as I said before, I have great admiration for anybody who struggles with it and does their best to overcome its effects.

I agree with this, children who have parents with BPD typically experience a messed up childhood. It's cruel and unfair on the children, no child deserves to be treated badly or not be loved and cared for properly. The person i know with BPD is a master manipulator, sneaky, cruel, only out for themselves, doesn't have loving feelings towards anyone (their own children included). This makes having a relationship with them very difficult and i now don't see or speak to them much because doing so is incredibly draining and upsetting. They are either on a high or really low, they always make ridiculous decisions and they think the world revolves around them. Ofcourse this is only my experience of BPD with the person i know.

I feel a lot of sadness for the posters whose lives are so negatively affected by family/partners with BPD. I don't mean to be presumptuous but I assume most of these relatives haven't had DBT?

DBT works to actually change your neural pathways, which is why it is really hard work and takes a lot of practice, but also why it's so effective as it actually enables you to change the messages your brain sends you when you experience distress. I imagine it's the same for people with other mental health issues, but in my experience people with BPD have very distorted thinking and are sort of not experiencing the world the way most people are, which is why there can be such a huge disconnect. It's not treatable with medication and won't just go away by itself, but it can be changed with very specific and intensive therapy, that alters the way your brain works.
I know it doesn't help those of you with loved ones who have hurt you so badly.

I wish DBT was more widely available and also better understanding of BPD, as I do think the stigma doesn't help. I can cope as I've had a lot of effective treatment, but I still feel "othered" by some of the comments, and I can imagine how if it could increase a sense of shame/self-loathing/disconnect from other people. That is not to say this discussion shouldn't happen, of course everyone should be able to speak their truths. I think there's a lot of bravery and reflection here. I'm more just wishing nuanced discussion was more widespread as it might help both people with BPD and their families cope better and to try to find support, rather than feeling ostracised and judged.

don't diagnose yourself with BPD, it's annoying for those of us who have been diagnosed with it

Well I'm sorry if you find it annoying, but I'm certain I have it. It's not something I would want to admit to if it didn't fit me to a tee.

I have been looking into it for years, analysing my behaviour and thought processes, exploring possibilities. I have spent hundreds of hours doing research, I've read the DSM5.

Below is a questionnaire from the NHS website, so I'll use that for sake of ease. The answer to every question for me is yes.

• Do you have an intense fear of being left alone, which causes you to act in ways that, on reflection, seem out of the ordinary or extreme, such as constantly phoning somebody (but not including self-harming or suicidal behaviour)?

Yes

• Do you have a pattern of intense and unstable relationships with other people that switch between thinking you love that person and they're wonderful to hating that person and thinking they're terrible?

Yes

• Do you ever feel you do not have a strong sense of your own self and are unclear about your self-image?

Yes

• Do you engage in impulsive activities in 2 areas that are potentially damaging, such as unsafe sex, drug misuse or reckless spending (but not including self-harming or suicidal behaviour)?

Yes

• Have you made repeated suicide threats or attempts in your past and engaged in self-harming?

Yes

• Do you have severe mood swings, such as feeling intensely depressed, anxious or irritable, which last from a few hours to a few days?

Yes

• Do you have long-term feelings of emptiness and loneliness?

Yes

• Do you have sudden and intense feelings of anger and aggression, and often find it difficult to control your anger?

Yes

• When you find yourself in stressful situations, do you have feelings of paranoia, or do you feel like you're disconnected from the world or from your own body, thoughts and behaviour?

Yes

Now obviously I haven't diagnosed myself based on that one informal survey, but after years of struggling with the rapid cycling ups and downs, suicidal ideation, severe fear of abandonment, black and white thinking, splitting, huge impairment in handling any sort of stress, emotional disregulation, self harm.

The one and only reason I don't have a diagnosis is because I do not want it on my medical record whilst I have small children and I'm too worried about reprisals if I 'out' myself to my GP. As you can see from the pages of people recounting their experiences of a mother with BPD, the world doesn't have much faith in them (and with good reason If the aforementioned accounts are anything to go by)

That's not to say I'm not trying to get better. I have copious amounts of reading material, DBT workbook, have researched extensively on DBT techniques.

So whilst I will respect that you find it annoying that I've self diagnosed, I'm pretty sure I know myself well enough to know what I am and what I'm not.

I will say - I do think it's very selfish of you to not seek a genuine diagnosis, OP.

It comes across as manipulation - hiding it, to control what's thought of you. Your symptoms/behaviour must really affect your family. If it is definitely BPD, it's likely you do things you're not even aware of because you don't see/experience the world in a NT way.

For the sake of your husband and children, please go to your GP and get a professional diagnosis and go from there.

I answered no to all of those. I’m autistic (clinically diagnosed). They just don’t compare at all. I don’t understand the posters saying autism and BPD are exactly the same. They’re really not.

Also, OP, thank you for your apology earlier.

They may be vIctims, but other people in a relationship with them tends to come out far worse. They end up the victims of the person with BPD and of ten end up with severe psychological difficulties along with the children of the relationship.

I wouldn't say selfish, but lacking insight. If my mother or ex had bothered to seek treatment (neither did) I wouldn't have spent years attending therapy for the effects.

I wouldn't say selfish, but lacking insight. If my mother or ex had bothered to seek treatment (neither did) I wouldn't have spent years attending therapy for the effects

Absolutely.

I think it's part of the disorder, avoiding professionals because they tell themselves they know better.

Tbh, I think the stigma is actually caused by the link the condition has with prior trauma and the idea of someone being damaged by their experiences. If you can end up with BPD due to trauma and people with BPD are traumatic to live with, the condition is kind of an advert in other people’s minds for why associating with people with the condition might not be at all desirable - nobody wants to be damaged in their turn.

What will a formal diagnosis do except leave a big black mark on my record which brings any future health related problems into disrepute by its very nature? What help do you think I'll get from my GP?

I have explored what help is available for people like me via the NHS, and it is nothing, unless I completely lose the plot and do something extreme which lands me on a section, at which point I might - just might - be put on a 3-5 year waiting list for DBT (by which point I'd probably have saved enough money to access it privately)

I've been on three different types of antidepressants.

I've had three separate forms of therapy in my life so far. CBT (for the anxiety and depression symptoms) EMDR (for unrelated PTSD after a birth trauma) and ACT (psychological support for a chronic pain condition I have)

I mentioned it to the second two therapists, both NHS. The first I mentioned it to, during EMDR, said they don't deal with complex trauma or PD's. She added that she didn't think I had it as If I did I wouldn't be able to cope with my children and would be presenting at A&E saying I want to kill myself 🤔

The second I mentioned it to said its not within her remit either, she doesnt deal with PD's and I need to talk to my GP.

So the two times I have confided in people, which took alot to do, I was essentially told "sorry can't help you" and reminded how stigmatised the condition is which just reinforced, to me, what everybody says about therapist's not wanting to work with BPD.

Over time I heard more and more negative anecdotes about how people with BPD are treat and thought of by HCP's so I now have no faith in the system for people like me.

If outing myself to the GP would result in me accessing DBT therapy I would do it tomorrow, even if it threw my parenting into the spotlight, but it won't. There's nothing they can for for me short of tar me with the shitty person brush.

If that makes me manipulative then fair enough, I am.

I also don't hide it from my family and friends. I'm very open about it. DH has known since very early on. I've spoken to my (few) friends about it aswell, one of which has actually been diagnosed with BPD formally.

Just because I don't want it on my medical file when doing so will serve no purpose whatsoever as the help isn't there, doesn't mean I'm hiding it from those who need to know.

How is avoiding professionals part of BPD?
This is not part of the diagnostic criteria. Also, I have met many people through DBT. When all your experience is based on people who refuse to or are unable to access support, you are referring to a portion of a group, not the entire group.

Many have written how hard it is to access any treatment for BPD on the NHS.

Many people with mental health issues avoid treatment when it would help them (and their loved ones), is there is any evidence people with BPD do any more than other people?

One of the primary challenges facing anyone trying to support someone with BPD - either in a professional capacity or just family/friends, is that until the person themselves is ready to take responsibility for their own actions and reactions, and is ready to learn the skills and then use them, everyday for the rest of their life - there’s little anyone else can do.

There is no cure - you have to learn how to manage the disorder, through a combination of skills and the laying down of new neural pathways (but the old ones still remain as well!). All of that takes time (and I mean years to decades) and a huge amount of motivation and willpower and commitment.

When someone will become ‘recovery ready’ (ready to be referred for DBT etc, ready to do the work) will vary person to person. There’s no magic switch you can push to MAKE someone be ready quicker either. So you just have to wait - and it’s like firefighting, and it’s horrendous, for the individual and for everyone around them. Firm boundaries are essential.

Hopefully the person at some point reaches readiness - they are able to recognise that their own behaviour and reactions are having a detrimental effect on their own life and the lives of those around them and want to do something about that - it’s not about ‘taking the blame’ - it’s not about blame or shame it’s just about accepting that ‘ok, my brain has not developed typically, for whatever reason, and that is causing me to respond and act in ways that are unhelpful or even harmful, to myself and those I care about - I need to learn how to think, react and respond differently’ - it’s about taking responsibility for learning to manage the disorder and continuing to do that everyday, recognising that YOU have the ABILITY to manage your emotional responses and you have a CHOICE how you do that, and you have to own the consequences for the choices you make.

Some people never reach readiness - they are just not able to acknowledge that anything is within their control, it’s everyone else that is the problem etc. They would never consider engaging with services because they don’t have a problem. We call this treatment resistant BPD. And it is a fucking tragedy and a car crash for them and everyone around them.

Its possible for ANYBODY to recover from BPD if they are prepared to put in the work. Not everybody will.

What do you mean by black mark? That social services etc might monitor?

In the survey you posted, you said yes to impulsive behaviour (unclear if alcohol, drugs, sex, self harm or suicide attempts) and splitting. Would it not be better to have this monitored and get help?

Really good post Rino. My only point would be that many people do not have access to the kind of help you describe (and that I've had, a bit NHS but mainly private). It's not even an option for many. I know that there are many areas woefully underfunded in the NHS and social care, and I suppose DBT must be extremely expensive.

What I mean by black mark is HCP's automatically assuming you're attention seeking, being manipulative, assuming something you're complaining about is due to the BPD.

It's like when an obese person goes to the doctor for something totally unrelated to their weight, yet the weight is always brought up.

But yes I also don't want my parenting put under the spotlight, I get all the support I need from those close to me. Having the 'what ifs' monitored will do nothing but cause me significant stress.

My impulsive behaviour is spending, which is under control.

I'm also a heavy smoker. It's a crutch.

I don't do drugs or drink, but used to take drugs recreationally and yes I used to be promiscuous. Neither thing is a feature in my life now because I have children. I have made so many positive changes.

I do have impulses to self harm but manage those well with techniques learned from my DBT workbook and self help over the years. I'm not an active self harmer.

What help do you think my GP could offer me?

@Cyberworrier tou are absolutely correct. That’s why new services for people not eligible for secondary care but nevertheless needing help, are so needed.

I work for one of these new services, (see my earlier post) they will be pushed out across the country but that’s no help for people needing the help now if it’s not yet in their area. Currently only in the SE.

@PonderingBPD

"But yes I also don't want my parenting put under the spotlight, I get all the support I need from those close to me"

The problem is you'll probably have phases of splitting on them, which limits how much support they can actually give and how honest they'll be with feedback.

Having someone neutral be objective might help.

Who do you think could monitor me and what would they be monitoring me for?

Self harm?
Child neglect?

Yes, this is why seeking professional help is so vital. Self-diagnosis can be dangerous, so firstly a diagnosis is important, but seeking neutral support and not relying solely on those close to you is, I think, a huge step towards managing your emotions and behaviour. It was only when my DM finally sought help that she became happier and much, much more stable.

You can't underestimate the emotional and physical effects of dealing with someone with BPD - it can be so draining and exhausting, at best, and traumatising at worst.

This is true for many MH issues - when my DH became depressed I was his only source of support for a long time, until I insisted he get outside help, and I sought support too. Luckily he's grand now, but he would have still been stuck in his cycle without outside, neutral, professional help. He also had an anxiety disorder recognised which neither of us knew he had.

Just because you've met a few professionals unable to help you, doesn't mean they're not out there - there are many that deal with BPD. If may not be 'stigma' that stops them treating you, but limitations to their training and experience.

As an aside, for those who have recognised unhelpful relationships with parents and suspect this has had a direct impact on their mental health/wider relationships, CAT can be an excellent option. It's available on NHS locally but I know plenty of people who have paid for it privately and said it was the best thing they had done.