To think the stigmatisation of borderline personality disorder is awful

[PonderingBPD]

Most people with BPD have experienced alot of trauma, typically during childhood, hence the disorder which has alot of parallels to complex PTSD. It's not something people choose to have and is actually soul destroying to live with.

Why are people with the condition spoken of and thought of so negatively? It's essentially victim blaming.

AIBU?

Exactly. MN is currently full of many self-diagnosed BPDs, who clearly have not encountered any actual BPDs; or perhaps they are not self-diagnosed, but have encountered one of the new slew of counsellors who follow the Janina Fischer model. In actuality, BPDs are usually a nightmare for those around them. They are not in general sensitive little waifs. I think there is a lot of misinformation about.

*Fisher

I was coming here to say the same as @CreaToration. I'm also autistic and have ADHD.

I am absolutely appalled that with an autistic husband and an autistic son, you STILL think that autistic people aren't treated badly or unfairly?????? If you had no one in your life who was autistic, that would be an understandable response but your complete unawareness suggests a disinterest in anything that doesn't actually affect YOU.

As CreaToration described very well, there's enormous stigma around autism. About whether we should be allowed to breed, or parent. Whether our children will grow up without love and affection. Anyone who acts badly is almost always suspected of being autistic.

Just to illustrate the point, there's a massive long continuation thread in Relationships which is a series of support threads for spouses/partners of autistic people. And it's rammed full of posts from individuals who all want to talk about how shit autistic people are and how it's horrible to be their partner or spouse. So far, I'm yet to find any posts that are doing the same for BPD.

I know you apologised for your comment but an apology doesn't really change your knowledge. I just came here to say that for the sake of your son I would strongly strongly advise you do more research on autism and the obstacles your child is likely to encounter from the world around them. It's not just people with BPD who have it hard. If you don't know about the stigma around autism, how will you properly support your son?

I just came to say that I wonder if there is a crossover between BPD and Autism and/or ADHD or is it possible to misdiagnose do you think?

I am diagnosed BPD, traumatic childhood, substance and alcohol abuse and self harming behaviours. On paper it's all there. But I don't feel BPD, when I read about others with the condition it doesn't seem like me.

I have dyspraxia, which has traits of ASD and ADHD as standard.

I'm high functioning and not medicated at the moment. I seem to have a cycle of breakdowns every 7 years or so (only 2 more to go til the next one!)

Just thinking out loud really.

Also it's really hard to get life insurance with a BPD diagnosis 🙄

Yet there is no stigma attached to autism. Autism isn't something people are made to feel ashamed of

I absolutely disagree with this!!

Actually as more is becoming known about autism in females (due to gender bias & diagnosis of autism predominantly in males) misdiagnosis is high in women. BPD is the common misdiagnosis due to it being an equally gendered diagnosis, (hence a PP describing it as this century’s “hysteria”) with overlapping features with autism spectrum & ADHD including executive dysfunction, emotional dysregulation, social anxiety, rejection sensitivity, co morbid mood disturbance, poor self esteem & impact of interpersonal relationships, impulsivity, complusivity.

Knowledge & confidence in diagnosing autism spectrum disorders in women is poor among GPs, HCPs & MH professionals. Diagnostic & assessment criteria is still formulated for male presentations only. Efforts are being made to improve awareness esp in psychiatry. A lot of lived experience and moves in empirical literature to support this.
Though not a diagnostic criteria, sleep disturbance, delayed sleep phase & circadian disruption are common features in ADHD & ASD (as shared w/many other mh conditions).

BPD and comorbidity with autism also being missed with evidence to suggest autistic neurotype can predispose to BPD due to shared neurocognitive, neurodevelopmental deficits.

www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default-source/events/open-events/forensic-asd/verity-chester---autistic-females-in-forensic-settings.pdf?sfvrsn=b17c553e_2

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8855062/

neurodivergentinsights.com/misdiagnosis-monday/boderline-personality-disorder-or-autism

Yep. I was married to a man diagnosed with BPD (many NPD traits too) he had no empathy, was extremely abusive. And whilst I had therapy (after the abuse) I was told that it was not a mental illness but a character disorder. It's also in the DSM-5 and a cluster B personality disorder and many of the traits of them overlap. Lack of empathy, dramatic, unpredictable behaviour. I find myself scared now when people say they have a diagnosis of BPD/EUPD. Though obviously people won't all present the same way.

Yep. I was married to a man diagnosed with BPD (many NPD traits too) he had no empathy, was extremely abusive. And whilst I had therapy (after the abuse) I was told that it was not a mental illness but a character disorder. It's also in the DSM-5 and a cluster B personality disorder and many of the traits of them overlap. Lack of empathy, dramatic, unpredictable behaviour. I find myself scared now when people say they have a diagnosis of BPD/EUPD. Though obviously people won't all present the same way.

My son has BPD and Autism. He has suffered no specific trauma. He felt no parental attachment to us from a very young age. This nearly broke our family, we tried EVERYTHING to try and connect with him. His younger siblings have suffered, in the sense that they could not avoid the situation and our desperate attempts to make it right. Now that DS is older he can self regulate a bit better and he makes an effort to connect.

This is only after suicide attempts and self harm and a really tough few years.

Honestly - BPD is so complex and there is no guide. I can understand why it is vilified but my heart breaks for my own child at the thought that he will never be happy. I want to just wrap him up and protect him, but I can't.

Your post made me cry. It's clear just how much you lived your DM and I'm sorry for your loss.

I have mental health issues that I can't ever get to the bottom off, no matter how hard I try to get help. I am snappier than I want to be with my children and spend too much time crying and I do worry that they'll end up hating me which is my biggest fear as I love them dearly.

@Intothewoodland i apologise if I upset you. It wasn’t my intention to upset anyone with mental health problems. I clearly have MH issues myself.

As I got older and learned about mental health it became obvious what the problem was. My mums crying wasn’t crying. It was crying and screaming while pulling her hair out or ripping her clothes or clawing at herself.

I don’t actually think crying in front of kids is a bad thing. But you do need to explain it. In a way that suits their age. My kids have seen me cry over my mum. To my 18 year old I can simply say ‘just a bad day and I am missing your Nana’. To my 11 year old, who is autistic, I need to give him a bit more detailed explanation. But both of them need reassuring that I am ok. I am just sad at time. Then I stop and we do something to distract us all. Obviously, they lost someone very special to them too. So I do ask, when it feels right how are they feeling and reassure them they can still come to me and talk if they are sad. There’s lots of conversations around how talking makes us feel better.

If I snap or get angry, we time out and then talk. I will explain why I got annoyed but I will apologise for getting angry and we usually make an agreement to both try better. I actively try a take a breath before snapping. Which is hard to learn. Ds went through a stage of telling small lies, which really annoyed me, I would tell him off, he became afraid and wouldn’t want to tell the truth next time. So now, if I think he is lying. I force myself to take a breath, remind him we talked about usually the lying bothers me more than what he did. I give him some time, then we talk. He has learned to trust me that he can tell the truth and it’s less dramatic.

I couldn’t tell my mum much. Anything that would disrupt the balance. Anything that would cause her stress. I got myself in some fairly dangerous situations so I could avoid the drama of being upset. I don’t want my kids going through the pain and stress, I did, because talking to me isn’t an option.

I don’t know if any of that helps. But it’s how I have tried to over come my MH and stop the cycle me and mum were in. It’s incredibly difficult when you don’t know exactly what’s wrong. I am sure your kids love you. The fact that you are aware of what you do, suggests (to me) that you are trying your best to overcome it. My mum still refused to acknowledge what actually happened to us. She believed we had an idyllic childhood. That was part of the issue. But, yes, I loved the bones of her. In many ways she was the best woman I knew, especially in my adult life. She adored us and managed to live heaven and earth. For example we were doing a secondary school appeal, around the time of a general election. Our area got a new MP, the morning after the results came out (which came out during the night) mum had managed to get the new MPs campaign managers phone number, called him and arranged an appointment with the MP as the criteria hadn’t been applied correctly. That got us the Mps support and dd got into the school. She knew we needed big gun support and got it. Even the campaign a manger was impressed she managed to track him down so quickly. She was amazing.

(n/c for this)

BPD is a very problematic diagnosis and history and it has been unevenly applied. There's absolutely a problem with using it to label women who display emotional reactivity, often as a result of trauma. But you will, now and again, find someone who meets the "classic" BPD traits. I know several people who have been diagnosed with BPD and they are all very different in terms of their external reactivity (the classic "walking on eggshells" behaviour). Some primarily direct it internally into self-harm. I also know someone (a man) who displays many borderline type traits (I am not a psychologist and won't diagnose), but has zero insight into his behaviour and refuses to seek treatment. This is the sort of situation where you need to decide what boundaries you are going to set.

There isn't a simple recipe for the effects of trauma. I was abandoned by a parent and then bullied extensively due to my (then undiagnosed) autism. I certainly did develop self esteem and abandonment issues as a result, but I don't have BPD. Many of the personality disorders are an attempt to categorise the effects of childhood experiences, and while there are patterns, they are not absolute or perfect. I've heard psychologists and therapists say that while labels can be helpful, and can help patients by giving them a name and understanding for themselves, that it can be more important to treat according to the behaviour you see, and not the label.

DBT is an excellent treatment but it's very demanding of therapists, as well as underfunded.

As an autistic woman (and the parent of 2 autistic children) I'd say that while yes, especially online, you see discussions of excusing poor behaviour because of neurodiversity, this is very contrary to my real life experience.

My mother has BPD and being raised by her was pure hell. She did a lot of damage to me and my brothers. I think personal experiences like that cause some of the stigma.

I hope that you can access therapy soon.

However I don't see (or use) my BPD as an excuse to mistreat my children. I don't have that in me

The thing is, my DM would have said the exact same thing. She genuinely had no idea how she affected those around her, and has a superhuman ability to deflect blame and responsibility. She re-writes history and gaslights, and thinks she's the victim.

To the outside world, she looks a lovely, caring, kind person. Until you get a bit closer. She makes friends easily but has never managed to hold onto one for long.

I'm not saying you're lying but sometimes those with BPD just aren't aware of how much they negativity affect others.

Oh goodness, please don't apologise. Your post, although sad because you shouldn't have had to deal with the things you dealt with growing up and because you've now lost your mum, also showed what a compassionate person you are.

i agree with you on the crying to an extent. I think for me the fear is it if my mental health issues escalating and there being no help available and then the impact that has on those around me. I've been assessed twice for various conditions and apparently have nothing. Without a label getting help seems impossible.

@Andromachehadabadday sorry, I posted too soon there.

I found your post really helpful so thank you for sharing.

Despite her challenges, your mum sounds fab and I'm glad she managed to become well enough in later life to support you with your children. I really hope you can get support with your feelings of grief. It can be so difficult to process, especially with more complex relationships.

@Anotherusernamethisweek

As @LicoricePizza has said upthread, female autism looks exactly like bipolar/BPD. There is increasing consensus amongst professionals that BPD is misdiagnosed autism in females.

My auntie has a bipolar diagnosis and has been to hell and back (EST, terrible meds) but would actually benefit far more from the understanding and support that an autism diagnosis brings. She has a bipolar diagnosis because, 50 years ago, people weren’t aware of what female autism looked like. She had anorexia, was highly sensitive, incredibly anxious and ‘too’ empathic.

female autism looks exactly like bipolar/BPD. There is increasing consensus amongst professionals that BPD is misdiagnosed autism in females.

Are women with autism reactively malicious? I don't think so.

These are three separate and very different diagnoses.

@milkyaqua

I’ve taught girls with autism who are reactively malicious. They struggle with anxiety around demands being made of them.

@LicoricePizza Thank you, this is very interesting. I can't see anyway that I would be taken seriously challenge my diagnosis much less change it, but it's nice to know that professionals are looking into this.

I didn’t know it was tbh. The one person I knew who eventually got diagnosed with BPD was one of the most toxic, hurtful, honestly batshit crazy people I’ve ever come across. She did some truly awful things to me, to friends and family and eventually ended up ghosting us all while blaming us all for her MH issues.

It hasn’t been a good experience but I don’t judge anyone with BPD. If I’m honest though, if I met a new “friend” and they told me they had it, I would be super wary and on my guard with them.

This is a very difficult read for someone with BPD! There have been some really interesting posts however and I'm grateful for the posters who've hopefully challenged some misconceptions that people have.
I've met lots of other people with BPD through DBT and something many of us had in common was a tendency to take everything out on ourselves, from literal self harm to very low self image/self worth. The one person I know with BPD who is perhaps more similar to some of the extreme encounters people have described, eg walking on egg shells etc, a tendency to explode at other people rather than everything being self directed, has not had DBT, the gold standard treatment. Someone made the point earlier it's almost impossible to get DBT on the NHS, which is awful (although I was interested to read about the project someone else was involved in, will have to google).

Incidentally there is a connection between the high number of female prisoners who've experienced trauma (often domestic abuse) and high level of self harm in women's prisons. Women in prisons are not usually in for violent crimes, it's often related to circumstances relating to relationships with violent abusive men. Just to point out the reason there's a high number of women with BPD in prisons isn't as straightforward as just that they lack morals/ are deviant.

I've encountered people who've behaved abysmally towards myself and loved ones before. Some have mental health problems, some don't. I don't think you can assume that swathes of the population will behave similarly, based on the behaviour of a few individuals. As someone pointed out, you don't have to fit all the same diagnostic criteria to be labelled as having BPD.

Dont self diagnose yourself with bpd. That is not only wrong but also not helping anyone. Plus it is annoying to people who actually are confirmed and living with it.

i have had experience With two people who have BPD diagnosed and a third who has self diagnosed.

In each of these cases, the attachment style and the paranoia of being left or abandoned was extreme. In each case, this has displayed itself through self-loathing and self-directed anger rather than at others. however, this also led to some behaviours which i would describe as manipulative (albeit not something they could help) which they did to stop people from leaving them.

i am exhausted and have had to put firm
boundaries in place with all of them. and because of this, the individuals have self harmed and threatened suicide. Through my work I am able to access mental health support, and this have given me the reassurance I needed not to give up my boundaries as a consequence of this behaviour. without this, I think I would still be in a bad situation with at least two of these people.

What I find interesting is that while they all rallied against the boundaries, felt abandoned at first but they all came to the point where they accepted them. At this point i am sure they decided that i had abandoned them (although i was still there, just not at all hours of the night, and not at the expense of my family time). They then moved on to someone else for the support they needed.

I really do care about all three people, and I can't imagine how awful this would feel from their perspective, but I see the behaviour repeating with other people in their lives now and the toil it is taking on them.

I also see the fact that they cannot access the therapy that they need, and the upset they feel from what they perceive to be a lack of care from people in the health and social care system towards them. I think that in practise this is another boundary issue.

I appreciate my experience is not reflective of all people with BPD, But from a self protection point of view I would probably be hesitant to get too close to someone who had BPD in the future. Your thread has made me question myself on this.

I could see ASD being misdiagnosed as BPD, but not bipolar. Bipolar episodes last for several months typically, or weeks, whereas melt downs don't.

If someone is triggered by the environment (like with BPD and ASD) and responds abruptly, that makes more sense. Especially if they have an ED.