To think my sister should get a refund?

[dinglisert]

So my Sister did a PGCE last year, she failed her second placement and had to undertake and additional placement the following Autumn which she also failed. Therefore a lot a money was spent on a qualification which she did not receive. Who decides to complete a PGCE and not receive a teaching qualification in the end. Just so you know my sister worked very hard and has ASD and Dyspraxia, she isn't lazy as some people might think she is due to her not passing.

AIBU to think DS sister should get given a refund, maybe not the whole amount as she did pass her uni assignments so she got awarded a PGCE but without QTS. But seriously, a PGCE with no QTS? You have to be honest it is a pointless award which no one will take seriously, in other words its worthless.

Do they know about her ASD & dyspraxia? If so, reasonable adjustments should be made on her placements to support her better.

If this hasn't happened already - could she perhaps go on another placement and explain the adjustments she will need to support her ASD & dyspraxia?

Don’t be ridiculous , using the same theory people would get their money back if they fail their driving test . I assume she had told them about her ASD / dyspraxia .

If this is genuine it is hilarious 😂

Adjustments can be made for the academic part of the qualification but harder to do with QTS. You have to pass the standards to be a teacher, you are in charge of a classroom and do need to meet this minimum.

It might be worth looking at which standards she didn’t meet and checking what support was offered when she was in danger of failing. But unless something was done incorrectly then there is no reason for a fee rebate.

Reverse?

So... in your mind, where would this refund come from?
Do all the mentors, teaching staff, university tutors who got paid for teaching her have to give part of their salary back?
I'm genuinely curious as to where you think her refund would be generated from.
Plus, I could do with a really good laugh.

She paid for the training and she received the training so there’s nothing to refund.

Nope, no refund.

I'm responsible for a large amount of teaching staff in FE, and also lecture on PGCE and Cert Ed.

First and foremost, no, she isn't entitled to a refund! She was entitled to try again to gain QTS, and whilst I obviously can't speak for her lecturers and mentors it would be highly unusual for her not to have been supported to improve in the second opportunity - we WANT our students to pass, but unfortunately some people just do not have the skills and despite being given extra time to build them, they don't meet the required standard. Your sister tried, and failed. Twice. That's a shame, but not a reason for a refund - driving test analogy repeat.

Also, a PGCE without QTS is absolutely NOT worthless, and it really boils my oil when people say this. You don't need QTS to teach 14+ i.e. the Lifelong Learning Sector. She could teach A Level, or in FE. She could also choose to do QTLS instead.

That said, if she failed placement twice, then there's something fundamental missing and an alternate career may be a better choice. Teaching is hard, and kids don't make 'reasonable adjustments'. She could possibly learn techniques to improve her practice, but it all depends on why she failed.

Ok. I see your point. You feel your sister has been let down because she has protected characteristics which make things so much harder for her. I hear you. It sucks.

But what if this was qualifying to be a heart surgeon? Or an electrician even? Some profession where her inability to do the job properly could put her or someone else at risk of physical harm? Of course you would understand why she could not qualify.

Now, without diminishing your sister's struggles, it is unfair to expect that someone who is not capable of coping with/delivering high standard teaching at all times, safeguarding their students, making sure a certain standard of learning is achieved and a certain level of pastoral care is provided should be allowed to teach entire year groups of children. They will all be at a disadvantage because she is. I'm sorry, but that's not how it works. Her particular presentation of ASD is not an asset to her chosen profession, but a drawback for her in a professional capacity. It sucks, and it's such a blow but it's what she's been handed. There's a way to make the best of this, as there is with most things, but first she's going to need her family to support her in making her goals more realistic. Attainable success is the way to go

She’s failed, twice. Presumably she was supported by her tutor yet still failed 2 different placements. Honestly, it’s quite hard to fail, ime, as a frequent mentor at various schools. I know lots of teachers with autism, it has not prevented them from qualifying/progressing in the profession.

She paid to have the opportunity to be taught the course.

She didn’t pay to pass the course.

Of course she shouldn’t get a refund. That’s absurd.

@TheCountessOfGrantham Goodness, that's well-written. And very true. Children get one chance at education - they deserve the best.

Do they know about her ASD & dyspraxia? If so, reasonable adjustments should be made on her placements to support her better.

I'm assuming that everyone who has come out with this, wants their children to be taught by a competent teacher.
Adjustments can be made when it comes to the academic study part of the PGCE, but if this woman's ASD and dyspraxia affected her ability to teach effectively, then there is no way to 'adjust' the role.

The placement element of a PGCE course is the most important part of qualifying as an actual teacher, rather than learning about education. Children cannot be 'adjusted' to help someone with a disability pass that element.

My brother did the same course and failed the placement. We all said that before he did it we didn't think it was a good idea, he didn't have a single attribute that i would feel would suit teaching. He didn't prepare properly and was not able to handle the class. All in all, you can pass all the essays and know in theory how to do the job but he was never going to be a teacher and was going into it for the wrong reasons. He became quite depressed for a while after that having sailed through his undergraduate and never for a second expecting to fail.

I don't know much about the teaching course but I assess student nurses and the uni will do anything to get them through placement. We have to set out and document expectations at the beginning of placement, document a midway review with a uni representative clearly showing that that they are not progressing at the level they should, where they are falling short of the learning outcomes and how that relates to our professional code and that they have been given a plan to meet very specific criteria set and then they have to have a final, again with a uni rep to state that they have not met expectations. Its not just a 'one mentor hates them so they failed type gig' it's 100 x easier to pass someone than fail them. But the end of the day if there is a professional concern my judgement of their practice as a registered professional can be called up to question and if I do not think they have the skills to do the job I will act as required.

You can support your sister by encouraging her to seek another path to use her degree. With all kindness 2 x mentors have assessed her as not competent to pass the course. She will not get her money back and dwelling upon this will not help her move on. Just because teaching is not for her doesn't mean there isn't a great job out there for her.

A pretty unanimous YABU, I’m afraid, @dinglisert .

Can't wait for the OP to come back!

What the shit? No she should not be getting a refund, partial or otherwise.

Brava @TheCountessOfGrantham Why do we think that just anybody can teach? There are specific skills, and they matter. These are our precious children.

I agree with those people saying this may be a good thing, teaching is really challenging if you have an ASC as it requires an element of performance/acting. If its not natural to you it can be exhausting. I got my PGCE and then taught for 2.5 years, it was something I really wanted to do but I had to work hard just to be average at it, I would never be really good as I don't have the right personality.

Of course she should not pass. She should have picked up her game for her second placement and/or asked for more support before doing it.

What areas was the strengths in the placements op ?

No she shouldn't. She failed, it sucks but it doesn't mean she should get a refund.

Is this a reverse? Are you on the receiving end of a complaint?

Is this a joke?